Worth the Upgrade to bayonet?

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by Cryptoniac, Apr 14, 2019.

?

Is it worth upgrading three weapons to Bayonet?

  1. Stay with Two- Prong and Repair

    5 vote(s)
    83.3%
  2. Stay with Two- Prong and Buy New

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Switch to Bayonet

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. Cryptoniac

    Cryptoniac Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2019
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    1
    I have three blades (two sabres, one foil) all electric. I use two prong and I've gotten sick of constantly repairing my cords. Is it worth the $80 to upgrade all my blades to bayonet and get a cord, or is it better to just buy a few new 2-prong cords that are high quality or just continuously repair my current ones?
     
  2. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    217
    Likes Received:
    20
    Depends. Do you fence internationally or just in the US. I fence in the US and prefer Bayonet. You can’t loose a retention clip. No pins to have to expand. Really good strain relief so broken wires are less common. Only issue I have is occasionally I will have to undo and retighten the grub screw on both ends due to corrosion build up.

    Potential cons are if none of your club mates use them then it is harder to borrow in a pinch. They are currently not legal at the FIE level. Check your national body to make sure they are legal to use in you area.

    Also make sure you buy Leon Paul ones. Knock offs aren't as good
     
  3. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    183
    All body cords require periodic maintenance regardless if they're 2-prong or LP bayonet. I'd recommend that you buy good quality body cords to begin with and learn how to maintain them.
     
  4. bobb121

    bobb121 Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    731
    Likes Received:
    27
    Negrini Bayonet in my opinion. All soldered connections and no screws
     
  5. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    217
    Likes Received:
    20
    At least the LP Socket
     
  6. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2001
    Messages:
    37,124
    Likes Received:
    1,416
    Not sure that "upgrade" is the right word for that...
     
  7. neevel

    neevel Armorer

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2000
    Messages:
    3,463
    Likes Received:
    345
    If you are using cheap (i.e., sub-$20) body cords, then going up to better quality body cords will make a noticeable difference in reliability. If you're willing to spend the money, the Negrini 2-prongs are probably the best out there (the wires have a steel core which makes them very strong). The new Leon Paul 2 prong with the strain-relief pigtail on the plug looks very promising, as it mitigates the one problem intrinsic to all clamshell plugs, that of the wire straining and breaking right behind the plug (make sure you get the repairable LP two-prong, and not the "throwaway" molded-plug one).

    For LP-style bayonet, you want actual Leon Paul (for both the cord and the socket). Knockoff LP-style bayonets are worse than cheap 2-prongs because all of the contact surfaces in the plug and socket need to be well-machined and corrosion resistant (the real Leon Paul sockets also have a rivet to keep the socket together and rely on the shape of the metal bracket to hold the plug in place instead of an internal plastic nib which gets worn out with use). With the Leon Paul bayonet and 3-prong plugs, there is one additional bit of routine maintenance that needs to be done: because of the way the screws penetrate through the insulation to contact the wire (instead of the wire needing to be stripped), they do back out after a while which causes resistance to creep up. You need to re-tighten the screws with some frequency, but this is a very quick task: pull the rubber boot back, back the screws off 1/4 turn and then tighten back down, then push the boot back up. Basically, the LP bayonet and 3-prong trade a little frequency of maintenance for ease of maintenance.

    There is only one real drawback to the Negrini bayonet, which is the flip side of it using a solder connection instead of screw terminals: if you don't carry a soldering iron, solder, and flux with you, you won't be able to fix it at a tournament when it does break (and all body cords will break at some point, it's just a difference of how frequently).
     
    ktinoue3 likes this.
  8. Mergs

    Mergs Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2000
    Messages:
    3,608
    Likes Received:
    249
    The other drawback is getting it tested at an event. The vast majority of armorers do not have that socket on their test boxes. I use to include it in the boxes I sell, but the demand isn't there to do that any more. In almost 15yrs + of NACs, Regionals, etc, I can say I've tested maybe less that a dozen of this style connector. And that includes WCs and GPs with the Italian teams there! Don't get me wrong, I think it is probably the most reliable connector out there, it just is expensive and now with the FIE ban on bayonet style connectors, I suspect that they will become even harder to find.
     
  9. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    16,577
    Likes Received:
    621
    Yeah...Dan supplied an adapter for both the Italian and LP bayo cords when I bought my box years ago. Still have them.

    Have only had to use the Italian one time, and the LP bayo rarely.

    I'll usually pull out my octo cord and my blade wiring test cord when I set up....but I don't pull the LP adapter unless I need it...which is often weeks apart.
     
  10. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2019
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    43
    I’m confused.
    Doesn’t the LP Bayonet work (both ways) with other people’s?

    My LP body cord works fine in my allstar or blade bayonet sockets.
    And I’d imagine the US body cords would work in a LP socket.
    No?
     
  11. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    5,477
    Likes Received:
    220
    I've made this point in other treads. The Leon Paul bayonet is the second oldest design out there. The only older one is the Carmimari. Even all the 2-prongs are a newer design. Leon Paul used British measurements to build everything and they haven't changed the size in almost 60 years. Since then only 3rd world countries use inches and feet. All knock-offs, including Allstar use metric measurements to make their connectors. They are close, but not exact, so a poor design, electrically speaking, will be worse.
     
  12. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2019
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    43
    I"m still confused.
    Are you saying Leon Paul is still making their bayonets with IMPERIAL measurement?
    I've still never had a problem mixing LP with other bayonet gear... are you just saying it could be a lesser connection?
     
  13. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2001
    Messages:
    37,124
    Likes Received:
    1,416
    So...what happens if one show up at a NAC/ROC/SYC with these perfectly legal body cords and sockets and no armorer is able to test them? Sorry, can't use those, go buy another kind and switch everything on your weapons to 2-prong or bayo? Issue a special dispensation to compete with untested wires? What?
     
  14. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    16,577
    Likes Received:
    621
    At those events, a competent armorer can find a way to test them.
     
  15. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    5,477
    Likes Received:
    220
    Let me put a hypothetical question to you. Let's say you own a company and they make something and it uses nuts and bolts and you have been making these for over 50 years. Do we pay for changing all of our forms, dies, tools to metric and not care about our loyal customers and tell them if something breaks down, it can't be repaired because the new parts don't match the old? Or do we keep it the same? One positive thing about LP is I maintain reels that are over 50 years old and still working. I know I can get parts for that will fit, rather than might fit. Yes, almost everything is Imperial that is legacy. There are pommels you need to use a 1/4" allen wrench.

    They sorta fit, but not good as the originals. All of us Armorers have seen problems when LP is mixed with others.
     
  16. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    5,477
    Likes Received:
    220
    As Sam said, not a problem. Let me show you the difference between a competition with U.S. Armorers and Worlds run elsewhere. 20 years ago an Epeeist brought up a bodycord that was required 70 years ago, but fell out of use in the 1950's. They assured me they were an armorer, their equipment was working and I wouldn't be able to test any of it. I bet them I could test it and if I couldn't I would buy them all new equipment. I didn't have to!

    At a Jr. Worlds here in the US, a Japanese Foilist brought body cords, we tested and passed. A couple of years later, that same type of body cord was failed at a Jr. Worlds, they said because they were unable to control. They had to be shown how to test body cords like that and then it was passed.
     
  17. sdubinsky

    sdubinsky DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    82
    I guess I'm missing something. Why is it complicated? Is it not just check it with an ohmmeter manually, if it doesn't fit in the box?
     
    JS Hart likes this.
  18. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,581
    Likes Received:
    154
    Was it an Amphenol connector?
     
    DHCJr likes this.
  19. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    5,477
    Likes Received:
    220
    First yes, it was an Amphenol connectors, French handle with the connector in the pommel.

    sdubinsky, you just proved my point, your U.S. Let me give another example, you likely don't have wrench to fit an Italian pommel (5 mm square), but I am sure you could find a way to tighten it. Only an Italian armorer would try, but the Italian armorer would not be able to tighten a pommel of any non-Italian fencer.

    At a World's the person testing the body cord is not the same person testing the Foils, so to their mind set how do they insure m.5.3, which is the reason body cords are male connectors. I know of a U.S. Armorer who built a body cord and connector out of phone connectors. It passed in the U.S., but it would never fly with other armorers.

    This is a quote from the head of SEMI who showed them how to test the body cord, "Je dois vous avertir que les Armurier américains, en particulier ceux formés par Dan DeChaine, sont censés tout réparer et pouvoir tout tester."
     
  20. brtech

    brtech Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,425
    Likes Received:
    202
    There is a rule about the reel end of a body cord, so all cords can plug into all reels. There is no rule that defines what the weapon end has to look like. I'm not even sure you need a connector, although in practice of course you do. So, any connector is legal as long as it otherwise meets the rules (no switches for example), and as Purp says, any competent armorer can test a body cord with any connector.

    Negrini and Camimari are NOT compatible with Leon Paul. They are both bayonet style, but they are very different. You can't get any Italian plug in an LP socket and vice versa. My older text box had the Negrini socket, and my current octopus cable still has the Negrini plug, but I haven't used it in years. As I recall, the Negrini is different from the Camimari. I haven't seen a Camimari bayonet in many years.
     
    DHCJr likes this.

Share This Page