wireless fencing kickstarter.

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by iktovian, May 2, 2015.

  1. iktovian

    iktovian Made the Cut

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  2. rudd

    rudd Podium

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    Interesting, I like their frankness about the system's limitations.
     
  3. erik_blank

    erik_blank Podium

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    I have to save this looks very interesting. I hope that the production cost can come down considerably and that our club can afford to purchase one of these when you start making your final product.
     
  4. iktovian

    iktovian Made the Cut

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    I'm not connected to the project in any way.
     
  5. Bonehead

    Bonehead Podium

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    I'm concerned about

    Since I'm often sweaty enough for this to be the case.
     
  6. LaurensonEngineering

    LaurensonEngineering Rookie

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    This limitation does not relate to sweat: It is simply saying that in sabre, you cannot hit your opponent while you are actually hitting your own lame (with your blade). While you are hitting yourself, you can still be hit.

    Hope that helps! Feel free to ask if you have any questions!
     
  7. Gav

    Gav is a Verified Fencing ExpertGav Moderator!!

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    This is quite an interesting project. I'm hoping they make their 70k AUD target although I do wonder if there's enough people out there.

    Good to see that they're using a completely different sensor system than the likes of hitmate.

    One question I do have is if they're supporting conductive pistes? Especially important in epee.
     
  8. iktovian

    iktovian Made the Cut

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  9. Bonehead

    Bonehead Podium

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    I sweat enough that my blade can sometimes be electrically connected to my lame. I fence foil, but I assume that similar problems must exist for foil and sabre.

    It's ****ty enough that that means that hits on my weapon arm register as on target, but it would be doubly annoying if that meant that my own touches didn't register.
     
  10. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

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    Or any other uninsulated metal portion of the sabre, such as the guard (which is far more likely to come into contact with the lame then the blade).
     
  11. LaurensonEngineering

    LaurensonEngineering Rookie

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    But....! FIE specifications: "The apparatus must be equipped with two yellow lamps regulated as follows. The yellow lamp on the side of either fencer must automatically light up and remain alight as soon as the resistance between the conductive jacket of that fencer and his weapon is less than 450 ohms. When this resistance is in excess of 475 ohms, the yellow lamp should never light up."

    Even if you were actually immersed in sweat, the resistance between the blade and the lame shouldn't be that low... I suspect something else is going on there-either a faulty box or some weird equipment stuff. If not... I really wish you were in Melbourne for testing, you would be absolutely ideal!
     
  12. LaurensonEngineering

    LaurensonEngineering Rookie

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    Yes, we support conductive pistes. The FAQ on the website was outdated (sorry, sometimes these things slip through the cracks). I have updated it.

    Absolutely right. Or even more commonly, if the pommel is incorrectly insulated, it can touch the sleeve of the lame. All of these things are to be avoided anyway, even with the wired system (as soon as you touch your lame, the blade becomes target area).
     
  13. Gav

    Gav is a Verified Fencing ExpertGav Moderator!!

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    There's a UK fencing forum and I've posted your kickstarter project there too.

    http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?20017-Kickstart-a-new-wireless-fencing-system

    I totally understand. An observation from the Kickstarter projects I've funded that have been successful is that it's important to keep on top of FAQs etc. Self promotion - ultimately that's what it's all about - is hard work!
     
  14. Bonehead

    Bonehead Podium

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    In club, on any given night, we often have 2 or 3 fencers who have conductive sleeves (in foil) due to sweat - i.e. you can hit their weapon arm, and get a colored light. You don't get a lot of guard hits in foil, so it's not clear to me exactly how often/regularly the foil has an electrical connection to the lame, but given that foil handles are rarely very well insulated, and that you can feel shocks in your arm on certain boxes, I'm fairly certain that it happens pretty often. That little yellow warning light blinks often enough that we ignore it.

    Obviously this is outside of FIE spec, and in a tournament this would mean that the jacket needs to be changed for a drier/less salty one, but in a club environment it's not worth doing that. We're generally pretty good at being honest and knowing when we hit the arm vs the target - cus it's pretty easy to tell where you hit or where you have been hit.

    It would add another layer of annoyance if it meant that touches weren't registering though. It's often the case where you can feel the point arrive on you, but due to the angle or the debounce or whatever it just doesn't register. I personally find it quite hard to be sure of which hits should register and which hits shouldn't without the box, so I'm quite particular about having a box that registers debounce/lockout correctly, even if I'm not so bothered by dead spots or sweaty conductive sleeves.

    For example, we have a box that despite being updated to 2005 timings, for some reason still doesn't register a touch (against) if you the blade is touching the lame (a la 1980's boxes). I refuse to fence on it, since if someone sweats a lot, or does broken time attacks that bring their arm close to their body, or counter attack in which their blade touches their lame, it can affect whether touches register. Especially in infighting situations.

    And even with the most honest people you end up saying things like "Yeah it was your attack, but I'm pretty sure I hit you with an early stop-hit that would have locked you out, do you think it should have arrived and if so should have locked you out?" to which the answer is inevitably "hmmm, I don't know".

    When I tested the Favero wireless system, it really felt like a lot of the touches landed just didn't turn lights on. We managed to replicate this failure under controlled circumstances. For example, when both fencers hit at the same time, often only one light came up - which is of course super annoying if your opponent likes to counter attack. We were quite sweaty though, so it could be that one persons foil was electrically connected to their lame. Regardless this made it a complete non starter for me.

    Also I can imagine that if a person makes a counter attack with opposition, that would mean that, sweaty or not, the attackers foil would be electrically connected to their own lame. If I knew as a counter attacker, I could block out attacks just by ensuring that I touched their lame and their blade at the same time with my foil, that would be a pretty useful tactic for me.

    But this is all foil concerns, and the warning of lame contact is under the sabre section. I'm assuming, that the mechanism is similar between the two, so the problem would exist in both, but maybe that's not the case.
     
  15. LaurensonEngineering

    LaurensonEngineering Rookie

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    For our system, the limitation mentioned only exists for Sabre, not for Foil. Since the button is not connected with the guard while it is depressed, guard to lame contact isn't an issue for us when it comes to sensing.

    I actually have no idea what could be happening with your boxes in club, I have never seen any system behave that way, wired or not. I am actually really curious about this.

    The Favero system you mention has a lot of limitations, however, they have defined the problems very well on their website, which makes them easier to accept. Our system works completely differently compared with the one by Favero, so the two systems don't share the same limitations.
     
  16. LaurensonEngineering

    LaurensonEngineering Rookie

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    Thanks! If more people hear about this, we have a lot more chance of getting funded. I think I'll stay off the forums there though, looks like LP turf.
     
  17. Gav

    Gav is a Verified Fencing ExpertGav Moderator!!

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    ... maybe. ;)
     
  18. sdubinsky

    sdubinsky DE Bracket

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    Selfish request: I'd like a pledge reward level somewhere between $10 and $680. I'd like to give more than $10(and will), but definitely not as much as $680. I don't know what it'd be, though.
     
  19. Bonehead

    Bonehead Podium

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    That's very good to hear!

    I'm excited to see if your system turns out to be the one that finally does it!
     
  20. LaurensonEngineering

    LaurensonEngineering Rookie

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    We really appreciate all support, of any amount. If you have any suggestions I'm happy to hear them. I'm not exactly a specialist in t-shirt design though.
     

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