What was the saber timing before 2005?

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by esgrima, May 8, 2019.

  1. esgrima

    esgrima Made the Cut

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    Quick question here. What was the saber the saber timing before 2005? We see a lot of talk about the switch from 120ms. to 170ms. but I can't remember the exact timing before. Also, has epee undergone any timing changes ever? If so, when? Thanks.
     
  2. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    Here is the official document, in french, from 2004.
    Old rules : 300 to 400 ms
    New ones (2005) : 110 to 130 ms

    For example :
    [​IMG]
    1/15 seconds = 66 ms
    (not so far from actual rules)
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  3. esgrima

    esgrima Made the Cut

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    Thanks. nice and big too. I was under the impression that at one point it was longer. I have an old book from the late 60's that talks about choosing the stiffest blade possible for epee because according to the author, the opponent might push through your stop thrust and set off the light too.
     
  4. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

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    I'm not sure if epee lockout times have changed one millisecond in the last sixty years (the last major opportunity for a change having probably been when foil was electrified in the 1950's).

    Foil lockout time may have been reduced at some point (maybe back in the 90's when they did away with the requirement that scoring machines register a valid touch after already registering an invalid touch on the same side), but even then it was only from ludicrously long to merely long.

    Saber is a relative newcomer to all this, having only been electrified about thirty years ago, and while there was a lot of tweaking of the timing in those first few years (basically right up until they did away with captuers) the changes have become far less frequent since then.
     
  5. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    when the timing was making a crease on your opponents jacket or making them cringe and yelp in pain.:D
     
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  6. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    It was the same in 1955.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. AStoddard

    AStoddard Made the Cut

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    It is reasonable speculation that the specified timings reflected the minimum interval that it was possible to measure reliably with the analog electronics available at the time when electric epee was developed.
     
  8. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    The story as Larry Dunn related was that in 1936, when epee was electrified, it would've been a physical relay switch, and the timing was set by the fastest one they could find.
     
  9. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    L’escrime et le tir, n°140, 1934 - FIE's Official magazine
    [​IMG]
    "For the past year, the international rules stipulate that the apparatus must be set in such a way that the hits arriving at the 2 fencers with a time difference of 1/10 of a second or less are recorded by the apparatus as a "double hit"; this tenth of a second has been fixed by the fact that it is scientifically acquired that the normal human eye no longer perceives a difference beyond one sixteenth of a second.
    Yours Sincerely,
    President of the FIE
    Paul ANSPACH."
     
  10. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    "scientifically acquired"... HAHAHAHA
     
  11. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    Quite a lot of the specs for scoring and fencers' equipment are hold-overs from when they were originally written to accommodate what was feasible with relay-based scoring apparatus. Many of the permitted ranges of variance for what resistances scoring machines to react to are one example; the requirements that most personal equipment (body cords, weapons, lames) have single-digit resistance values while scoring machines react to triple-digit resistances is another (it provided a fair amount of leeway for relays and reel brushes & commutators to get dirty before functioning would be affected).
     
  12. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Has there ever been a move to increase those resistance levels? Even doubling them would take a lot of work off us armorers.
     
  13. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    The rub is, the STM wireless system was designed around those resistances and genuinely requires them to be pretty much on-spec so, no, I would not expect them to be changed.
     
  14. brtech

    brtech Podium

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    Actually, the StM requires tip to B to be 1 ohm, where the rulebook only requires 2 ohms. It's REALLY annoying to have a weapon failed for this. Happens often when wireless is being used. In Jr Worlds in Verona last year they weren't using wireless and still enforced the 1 ohm "rule". Truly ticked me off.
     
  15. Quinn

    Quinn Made the Cut

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    Does anyone know how robust the LP and EnPointe systems are in face of increased equipment resistance?
     
  16. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    I don't think there is an officially stated value for the B-terminal to foil-tip resistance. The 2 ohms given in the rulebook is for the B-to-C terminal resistance at the socket, and documentation specific to the StM system states that a B-C resistance of 5 ohms is the practical upper limit for the system. If you take the interpretation that the m5.4(a) 2 ohms limit is one per 'line', then you could arrive at 1 ohm for B-terminal to tip, and 1 ohm for barrel to C-terminal.
     

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