What grips are legal for foil and epee?

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by Dunar, Feb 22, 2006.

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  1. Dunar

    Dunar Rookie

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    I have been wanting to get an Italian grip foil for some time but I have heard that it is illegal for competition from some other fencers I know and from serveral websites. I have also heard that it is legal from others. Does anyone know What this grip's status is and what other grips are not allowed?
     
  2. OROD

    OROD Podium

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    Italian grips are fine. So are Spanish grips, French, all the orthopedic ones... What's illegal are overly long grips (i.e. thumb too far from bellguard) and grips using "special" devices like wrist straps or anything that secures the grip to the hand, stuff like that.


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  3. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Basically a grip is illegal if it allows the hand to be fixed in more than one position...the Gardere is the classic example (Barry Paul would tell you otherwise....but in the US it's illegal), but as Donald Clinton will tell you, you can;t ban a grip by the name....you m,ust do it by the properties of the grip.

    The Italian is perfectly legal....but it doesn't really lend itself to the modern foil game. Neither does the French...although it's still workable in epee..
     
  4. Dunar

    Dunar Rookie

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    The Italian is perfectly legal....but it doesn't really lend itself to the modern foil game. Neither does the French...although it's still workable in epee..[/QUOTE]

    I know that the pistol is better in modern foil (which is why I only use that now) but I still like the feel of the Italian and I could use it in some less competative situations.
     
  5. KD5MDK

    KD5MDK Moderator

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    The proper answer is show it to me and I'll tell you.
     
  6. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    Well, if you're using it for training, you should use whatever you'll compete with. If you're not training or competing (i.e., giving a lesson maybe?) who cares if it's legal or not? Though the Italian is fine, as is French, as they do not have any extensions that officially fix the hand in a position (i.e., they don't seem to count as orthopedic grips). Orthopedic grips are only legal if they fix the hand in one position and that position is within 2 cm of the guard (the thumb, that is).
     
  7. Morion

    Morion Rookie

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    I thought Spanish Grips were illegal. :confused:
     
  8. seak

    seak Rookie

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    I am pretty sure there is a thread on that somewhere but I dont have time to go find it now.

    The long and short of it is that opinion seems to be relativly evenly divided and depending on who your FOC referee is it may or may not be illegal :)
     
  9. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

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    It can also depend on which "Spanish grip" you are referring to (traditional? offset?).

    Names can be changed and different manufacturers sometimes use the same name for completely different grips. The characteristics of an individual grip determine whether or not it is legal, not its name.
     
  10. mrbiggs

    mrbiggs Podium

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    I think that...
    The "Spanish grip" that is a pistol grip with a French-style pommel is illegal.

    The type that's just a variant of a normal pistol is not.
     
  11. fatfencer

    fatfencer Podium

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    Not correct actually. The Italian (Nadi-style) Grip is perfectly legal WITH a wrist strap. In fact its almost impossible to fence well at all without it due to its balance.

    I fence with it for fun sometimes. Won a DE last year at a NAC with it. Generally I fence with visconti or belgian....whichever my hand seems to favor that moment

    FatZorro
     
  12. schlager7

    schlager7 DE Bracket

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    The design of most Italian grips make them legal for competition so long as their size relative to the size of your hand does not keep your thumb too far from the bell guard.

    There are some older Italian grips that turn up which would not be legal for competition because the quillons (crossbar) extend past the outer edge of the guard. (This is the same rules application which states it is illegal for the socket to extend beyound the outer edge of the guard). Of course, all such Italian grips that I've seen with this problem were on dry weapons, so there was never an issue.

    I own (for fun) two weapons with different Spanish grips. One is the classical Spanish grip. This is essentially a French grip with two assymetric crossbars extending out. If you hold it like a French, one bar nests in the web between the thumb and index finger, the other between the ring and middle fingers. It truly works like a cross between a French and Italian. Because it has these "special devices" which fix the hand in one position, but also can be posted like a French, it can not be used for USFA-sanctioned competitions.

    I also have a weapon with an orthopedic Spanish (sometimes called a Spanish offset). It is little more than a contoured, ortho-looking version of the classic. Instead of thin crossbar protrusions, it has curves of aluminum that nest in the same places on the hand as the classical Spanish. While this version has a pommel nut similar to that of a pistol grip, the rear extension of the grip is every bit as long as a French or classical Spanish. Thus this weapon can also fix the hand in one position or be posted. Again, it is not for use in USFA-sanctioned events.
     
  13. IanSerotkin

    IanSerotkin DE Bracket

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    Here you go.

     
  14. OROD

    OROD Podium

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    As far as I know the Spanish (or Spanish Offset) grip is legal.


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  15. german_fencer

    german_fencer Rookie

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    Old topic but dont wanna start a new one... Isolated "foil" grips are allowed in epee as well?
     
  16. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    I believe you mean 'insulated'. The answer is a definite Yes or No, depending. m.4.3 is where the answer can be found. For most insulated Foil handles means paint and that would not be a problem as it wouldn't hide a wire or switch. But if it is covered in plastic, then it would be a problem. If someone added tape, a definite problem.
     
  17. german_fencer

    german_fencer Rookie

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    yes sorry, insulated ;)
    thx
     
  18. Stormbringer

    Stormbringer DE Bracket

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    Using the Italian grip (assuming the grip itself conforms to the other rules, like the crossbar not extending past the edge of the guard, the whole hilt not being too long, and so on) is legal, both with and without the wrist strap.
    (I use my Italian grip epee without a wrist strap.)

    Separately, the wrist strap is legal for use with any otherwise-legal orthopedic grip (that would structurally allow for it), including the Italian grip.
    (So, yes, you could also use a wrist strap with a Visconti, Belgian, German, Russian, and a host of other ortho grips. Obviously, ortho grips that don't have a "tail" that extends past the wrist, like the Zivkovic Z-series grips, cannot accommodate use with a wrist strap.)

    The wrist strap is illegal to use in combination with a non-orthopedic grip (e.g. a French grip).

    The wrist strap should not be confused with a martingale.
    The martingale is a strap-loop or a rigid hook for the fingers, which is attached at the front of the grip; see here and here.
     
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  19. Stormbringer

    Stormbringer DE Bracket

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    See here and here.

    "The use of a strap to assist in holding the weapon has caused some confusion. If one has a legal orthopedic grip (including the Italian grip), one may use a strap. If one is using a French grip, one may not use a strap. The basic concept here is that if one wishes to have a weapon that will allow for longer reach (French handle), one may not have a device (strap) that will give the user added strength."

    "It is legal to use a wrist strap with any orthopedic grip, especially an Italian grip, in USFA competition. French grips, due to the possibility of changing position of the hand, may not include the use of a wrist strap."

    To answer the specific question, the Italian grip itself is legal, both with and without the wrist strap.
    Any otherwise-legal orthopedic grip (including the Italian grip, and the various pistol grips) may be used in combination with a wrist strap, if that is your preference.
    Non-orthopedic grips (e.g. French grips) may not be used in combination with a wrist strap.

    The Gardére grip (see also, here) is specifically disallowed by the FIE (the International Fencing Federation); see here.
    "The company Paul has requested an opinion on the use of the grip Gardére: the SEMI Commission considered in the past the grip as dangerous and it still is at present. See paragraphs m.4.6, m.4.6.a, m.4.6.b, the grip Gardére does not respect any of the mentioned rules."

    There is a general "rule of thumb" that states that if a given grip has both a large external pommel (like the French and Italian grips) and prongs/protrusions that can serve as hooks for the fingers, it is very probably going to be deemed illegal by the referee(s) and/or armorer(s).
    Variants of the Spanish grip, such as this one and this one, are examples of this.

    Additionally, the rules can determine whether a specific individual grip is legal for use by a specific fencer.
    The rules state that the orthopedic grips must be sized so that "the extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard".
    This means that, for example, a large or long-nosed grip that might be perfectly legal for a large (or large-handed) fencer might be illegal for a very small (or small-handed) fencer, as the latter's thumb might not reach within 2 cm (just under 13/16 of an inch) of the inner surface of the weapon's guard.
    So, it is not just the grip itself that can be illegal, but a particular combination of grip and fencer can be ruled illegal even if there is nothing particularly controversial about the grip itself.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  20. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    Dude, that was... 12 years ago. Let it go. :)
     
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