Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by cornflower, Aug 12, 2004.
I saw those grips that are a cross between a french and pistol grip. Your opinions?
illegal.... thats what I say. They are not legal for fie competition or USFA competition, so why use them.
I guess they must be more for recreational fencers, then.
yeah.... very much illegal
Sorry you are both wrong 'THEY ARE NOT ILLEGAL' Ask Dan DeChain DHCjn.etc
Please explain why you think they are illegal and then see previous posts. Barry Paul M.d. Leon Paul
Barry is right, they are not illegal. Read the actual rule concerning this and you will be unable to see anything that is broken. It is illegal to pommel with them because you have to hold the weapon in the manner it was designed to be held in.
I can kind of see why Barry gets upset about this. His company (Leon Paul) make the grip and people go around saying it is illegal for no real reason.
If it conferred an advantage that would be one thing, but it is almost universally agreed that the gardere is a rubbish group (less popular than the French, and on a par with the Italian).
So...the ones without the pommels are legal, but the ones with the pommels are?
Why would I want to use them over a Spanish offset?
I have stated this many times in this forum, so one more time won’t hurt. I also know that Barry will never agree with SEMI over this. The rule that makes the Gardere illegal is M.6.4. Gardere will never be listed specifically as illegal, because right after that the name would be changed to something like Gardire.
Look at a handle like Belgium, Visconte or German. The large prong stops you from going back any further. As long as your thumb is within 2cm of the inside of the guard, there is no problem. Now take the Gardere, it is a set of small ridges. You should mostly use just the first 2 fingers and the thumb and the last 2 just for help. You can move your hand down the Gardere, while still having the same control.
If you don’t know what one looks at, there is one pictured on the Leon Paul website as well as the proper way to hold it. You will have to visualize from the picture of the handle moving your hand. Remember you will have a pommel at the end for the last 2 fingers.
I really wish they weren't considered illegal but they are. Being a posting epeeist, I'd love to be able to use one.
Here's a better view of one (not an LP however).
That is exactly why they are illegal. I also like them and would like to use them legally, not posting. When I have fenced, I prefer to post with a French, but when my hand gets tired, I use a Russian. The problem is people would be tempted to post.
That is a good picture. The trouble is there are those 'Who do things to adjust the probability of winning'. Remember the 76 Olympic Pentathalon.
As with many companies in this sport, Leon Paul has had many inovations. Most of Leon Paul have been positive. The X-Change and the elimination of the tang on the mask is a boon to Team Armorers. We can tell the sabreist to buy a new bib. I'm out of the sewing business.
Yes, but LP's non-pommel one's are legal, right?
Note: MANY a good grip has been banned because of all this "pommeling" rubbish. I loved the Spanish modern, yet always used it in a legal way. But because of pommeling...
I was at a collegiate tournament in May and was told that my American grip (actually a Belgian with the big bottom prong removed) was illegal. And yet my coach tells me it's legal, and members of my club have told me that they used American grips at a major USFA tournament in Las Vegas without its being questioned. (Not the same as the grip Triplette is now calling an "American" grip.)
The Gardere in the picture above doesn't look as though you'd be able to move your hand up and down it.
Very confusing. Let's all go back to French.
The grip you seem to mention is sold by Negrini. In fact, I just ordered an American grip from Triplette, and simply plan to take the bottom prong off to get the "true" american grip that you describe. Yes, from what I now understand, it's perfectly legal. Where did you purchase the grip?
With the Gardere you can pommel the weapon and still have a finger wrapped around that back prong, thus you do NOT lose the power of the grip while getting the longer reach of pommeling.
With a French grip you trade power for distance when you pommel. With a Gardere you don't, and that puts you at an advantage over your opponent based on the grip, not your skill.
Sorry, Barry...but in the US, you're wrong.
From American Fencers Supply. I ordered a large Belgian and requested that they remove that bottom prong. I call it my "naturalized American" grip since it started life as a Belgian.
Leon Paul's handle uses a French pommell. The reason you don't see a pommel is they are holding just a handle, not a weapon. Look at the pictures of their French. They also do not show pommels. Except for their 140, all the French have French pommels.
If the Belgium is Legal and you remove attachment, how is that a problem?
As I said before, you are trained to use the first 2 fingers with the back 2 as support. Move behind the 1st prong and you still have 2 indentions for your first 2 and the pommel for the last 2.
S.E.M.I. members have confirmed to me that gardere handles would be passed by weopon control at any World Championships or Olympics.
On the logic used any pistol grip could be banned because you could hold it with your thumb more than 2 cm from the guard.
The illegality can only be decided by the referee when fencing.
Referees,Technicians and weopon control should use a bit of common sense.
What would a referee do with a fencer with no thumb according to the rules he could not use any sort of pistol grip!!!!!!!! Barry
Someone with no thumb isn't able to fence with that hand at all... how's that for common sense...
What members, I have been told by three SEMI members, Dan, Marcello, and Abransom.
Quote 'DHCJr I have stated this many times in this forum, so one more time won’t hurt. I also know that Barry will never agree with SEMI over this. The rule that makes the Gardere illegal is M.6.4.'
Do you mean M.4.6.
So the gardere handle is illegal because although you can also hold it the correct position with the thumb less than 2 cm from the guard, you can also hold in another position which leaves your thumb more than 2 cm from the guard.?
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