Valid parry in sabre?

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by Black Widow, May 4, 2017.

  1. Espada 1

    Espada 1 Rookie

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    Remember that the rule says that if an attacking blade strikes the opposing weapon (blade or guard) and the target simultaneously that is a valid touch. If the blade hits the opposing blade or guard and whips over that is not a touch, but of course since the introduction of electric sabre there is a light on demanding that it be recognized. In practice this is very hard to determine accurately and the referee must rely on his instinct as to what actually happened, and you can guarantee that one of the fencers will be certain that they have just been robbed by Blind Pew.
     
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  2. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    Pardon the silly foilist / engineer here, but can't the scoring machine determine if the sabre hit the guard, while at the same time the target?
    In that case, the scoring box rules could be:
    - Simultaneous contact with guard <= 2ms, and target == Touch (colored light)
    - Simultaneous contact with guard > 2ms, and target == No touch (white light and colored light)

    2ms is a # I pulled from the air, replace with something that makes sense..
     
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  3. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    Yes, that's the function of the whipover protection (Material rules, Appendix B, part C.b.5):

    - Simultaneous contact with guard <= 4ms, and target == Touch (colored light)
    - Simultaneous contact with guard > 4ms and <15 ms, and target == No touch (white light and colored light)
    - Simultaneous contact with guard >= 15 ms, and target == Touch (colored light)
     
  4. Stormbringer

    Stormbringer DE Bracket

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    Indeed, it can - in fact, the whipover protection that's supposed to be built into the box (see Appendix B in the rulebook) states:
    and
    So, the box will register the touch if the contact between the opponent's target & the fencer's blade and the contact between the opponent's blade & the fencer's blade occurs at the same time (e.g. within 4 ms of one another), as would be the case with a poorly-formed parry attempt, but that the box would lock-out a touch when the contact with the opponent's target and the fencer's blade happens between 4 ms and 15 ms after the contact between the opponent's blade & the fencer's blade, as would be the case with a blade whipping around an otherwise correctly-formed parry.
     
  5. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    That makes sense.
    Sounds like this was to allow a bind or take. From OP's description, the 15ms might be too short.
     
  6. mtwieg2

    mtwieg2 DE Bracket

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    The Sabre whipover lockout is implemented fairly inconsistently across scoring machines (sometimes not at all), based on my testing. Though it's dubious as to whether it would actually ignore more bad touches than good touches.
     
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  7. mpego1

    mpego1 Rookie

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    reddit r/Fencing had a long discussion about this recently that contained a lot of excellent information - rather enlightning actually. For anyone interested in what/when/if there is such a thing as a Mal Parry in Sabre...
     
  8. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Which rule? T.70.4 saith "Touches through the blade, that is to say those which touch the valid target and the sabre of the opponent at the same time, are valid whenever they arrive clearly on the target." Through the blade; the guard is not mentioned.


    It's a quibble, but technically all three of those cannot be "simultaneous".
     
  9. Black Widow

    Black Widow Made the Cut

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    This is a really great string. I pdf'd it so that I can read it over again and think about it some more. I really struggle with defense so it feels good knowing I'm not alone in that regard.:)
     
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  10. mpego1

    mpego1 Rookie

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    Also BTW from reading your original posts again - it struck me that what you got caught in was a crude type of bind (blades come into contact and stay in contact then one fencer attempts to hold or move the oppenents blade in some controlled way using strength or leverage, and then slides aloung or over their oppenents blade for a touch)...when you feel a hard/strong counter pressure like that on your blade, try not to give in to the desire to fight back against the pressure with strength of your own (that just helps seal the bind) - use tactile finese to evade the pressure and escape the bind by going the other way (with the press but faster) - move your bell around if you have to, retreat or withdraw your arm if you have to, disengauge and then try another action, like a counter parry or a fast remise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017 at 9:40 PM
  11. Black Widow

    Black Widow Made the Cut

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    Exactly! You described it much better than I did...and I was there! This particular opponent likes to do this, one of his favorite strategies. Thanks for the great ideas. I have been working on not getting "caught in a bind":D and your suggestions will help.
     
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