Unusual grip at Cartel Escrime

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by EldRick, Jul 6, 2011.

  1. EldRick

    EldRick Podium

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  2. erooMynohtnA

    erooMynohtnA Podium

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  3. migopod

    migopod Podium

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  4. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    I'll bet they weren't designed by a sabre fencer. That's some proselytizing foilist's or epeeist's work! :mad:
     
  5. Mergs

    Mergs Podium

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    OK, I'll bite. Why not legal for saber? Foil and Epee I get, but saber - what's your rationale?
     
  6. migopod

    migopod Podium

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    I'm working from the 2008 rules here, so it's possible that it might have changed, but the language stating that the grip (or glove) including any device or attachment that fixes the position of the hand on the grip etc. is headed "Characteristics Common to All Weapons"* and does not appear to exclude saber to me.

    Am I misinterpreting?

    * Of course an argument could be made that saber is excluded since we all know it's not really a weapon.
     
  7. Mergs

    Mergs Podium

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    So, how would you hold this grip in more than one way if it was mounted on a saber?
     
  8. erooMynohtnA

    erooMynohtnA Podium

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    With ease?
     
  9. migopod

    migopod Podium

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    Pretty similarly to how I'd hold it with an epee. With a finger or three outside the guard and use it to execute stop-thrusts to the cuff. The extra inches with current lockout time would probably be pretty useful, and a point-forward sort of hand position would protect the fingers that remain outside the guard.
     
  10. Mergs

    Mergs Podium

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    Eh, not seeing the difference between what you describe and what you can theoretically do with a current saber grip now. A french grip gets around this rule because it doesn't 'fix' the hand in more than one position, although it could be argued that by pommelling the grip, you violate the 2cm thumb to guard rule.
     
  11. erooMynohtnA

    erooMynohtnA Podium

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    How does a standard saber grip fix the hand in a way the French does not?

    A French grip? No. The grip in question, yes, which is why it wouldn't be legal.
     
  12. migopod

    migopod Podium

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    The point being that while you could hold a standard saber in this way you couldn't take advantage of orthopedic protrusions while doing so which you could with the Cartel grip, so in my interpretation of the rule is that for all weapons a grip must either not have orthopedic protrusions (French and conventional saber) or fix the hand in one position with the thumb no more than 2 cm from the guard.
     
  13. downunder

    downunder Podium

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    obviously this grip does not comply with either the spirit or the letter of the rules.
     
  14. milstdfarm

    milstdfarm Made the Cut

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    If you click the second link you can see a bigger picture of the grips which show a groove cut for the wires to feed through against the guard. So I don't think this is for sabre.
     
  15. migopod

    migopod Podium

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    http://www.poigneeprat.com/
    referenced previously in this thread
    It looks like it's intended to be used on all three weapons and claims were made that it is legal for use within the FFE (possibly just U14), but I don't know to what degree the French materials rules differ from FIE or USFA rules on the matter.

    It would certainly be deemed illegal for competition on all three weapons in the US or FIEish rules sets.
     
  16. Mergs

    Mergs Podium

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    I don't disagree that for foil and epee it would be illegal, I'm just interested in the implications for saber. Would have to get one and mount it on a saber to actually see how it could be held. Maybe even fence a few bouts.........any takers?
     
  17. erooMynohtnA

    erooMynohtnA Podium

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    You're really having trouble with the implications for saber? Imagine it's a foil and you're holding it illegally. Now imagine that it's a saber and you're holding it the same way. VoilĂ 
     
  18. fatfencer

    fatfencer Podium

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    Two things... looks like a very straight Gardere grip by LP, which not surprisingly I am a fan of(goofy grips!!!)

    Secondly I am ashamed of F-net that I was the first to notice 'prat' on the grip... which makes me not a fan of this grip.

    Prat.. eek!
     
  19. migopod

    migopod Podium

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    Second :D
    http://www.fencing.net/forums/thread52983.html#post901538
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
  20. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

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    Just to give credit where credit is due (something I'm certain Donald would insist on if he were here), the portion of his post which you've quoted was itself a quote from the response which he received from Dan DeChaine following his own inquiry as to the legality of this grip.
     

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