Unsportsmanlike Conduct after Bout Finishes

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by jdude97, Feb 15, 2018.

  1. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    213
    Scenario: one fencer reaches 5 touches in bout to 5, fencers salute and shake hand, then as the losing fencer walks back to his end of the strip of unhook, he says audibly enough to be heard by people on the next strip over, "That was some bulls*** refereeing!"

    Questions: would the appropriate penalty by a Group III penalty for a fencer disturbing order on the strip (I've heard this is the appropriate penalty for something to do with swearing)? Or could you not give that penalty since the bout ended once the fencers shook hands and so now the fencer is considered a spectator so and could only receive a spectator yellow Group III penalty as a person not on strip disturbing order or maybe even anti-sporting behavior since they're comment was directed at referees (I probably wouldn't penalize if he just said BS)?
     
  2. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Likes Received:
    177
    Group III Red for Disturbing Order On-Strip. In epee, you visually supervise the defeated fencer until he has unhooked to prevent him from kicking out the floor cord, thus requiring the final touch to be annulled. Hooked = On-Strip.
     
    swordwench likes this.
  3. keropie

    keropie Podium

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    165
    For me, I honestly think I'd go one of two ways:
    1) Stern talking to, including asking if there's anything the fencer would like to say to the referee. Depending on how that conversation goes, we might continue to #2....

    2) Black card. You don't get to question the referee's competence or ethics, especially not like that.

    Note that I'd have the same two options in mind if I were the referee on strip, or a referee passing by.
     
  4. Archerlite

    Archerlite Made the Cut

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2018
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    2
    I disagree with both answers. I'm far away from International refereeing (I'm even not allowed to give black cards) but :
    – The strip is where the bout is fenced. If the bout is finished, the strip is nothing then, so you can't give a III group card.
    – If he wants to contest, he immediately go the Staff, and contest. If he's not right, you give him a yellow card (I group)
    – If you think there is obvious unsportsmanlike conduct : black card, even after the bout's end.
     
  5. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    213
    To clarify for anyone future reading, the group I yellow card in this second bullet point would be for unjustified appeal, suggesting the fencer appeal to the BC if he is unsatisfied for the referee, but that is well removed from the situation I posed since this is a question of sportsmanship. Also I will add that you should be aware that if you are refereeing in a tournament, then you are allowed (as far as the rules allow) to give black cards. Even the most junior ref is allowed to give black cards (although you should do so sparingly and probably involve a more experienced ref if possible before giving a black card).
     
  6. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    213
    So given this answer, score is 4-4 and bout continues? This situation reminds me of a much-debated referee's exam question in which a fencer gets a red card for removing his mask before the referee calls halt after scoring the 5th touch at 4-4 in which the consensus seemed to be that a touch scored + red card against was equivalent to a double touch and thus led to the score rolling back to 4-4.

    Do you have any rule citation that the bout isn't over until the fencer is unhooked? I have long had the understanding that the fencer gives up any right of appeal after they shake hands with their opponent (something that is formally required in the rules), which would also negate the scenario you pose in which a fencer kicks out the floor cord. Would I be wrong as a referee not to annul the final touch if, after shaking hands and going to unhook, a fencer's weapon does not go off during a test (assuming I have no reason to believe anything has been manipulated)?
     
  7. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Likes Received:
    177
    No citation, just the ubiquitous "guidance" from RCs, Instructors and FIE Bs.
     
  8. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    213
    Don't want to edit since you already responded but what I said in my first paragraph is actually irrelevant since this scenario as the fencer getting the red card on the losing side. What would the final score of this bout be though if the winning fencer already has 5 touches -- losing fencers gets minus 1 touch or red card has 0 effect? Regardless this penalty doesn't do anything to the fencer since G3R don't carry over from bout to bout whereas a spectator yellow would follow you for the day.
     
  9. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    280
    And still nobody at FIE or USFA has put any kind of imprimatur on any of that "guidance," let alone compiled it into a situation manual that rank and file refs can use as a reference.
     
  10. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Likes Received:
    177
    All are behavior-modifying negative consequences. Have used "stern talking" at scholastic meets where behavior standards haven't been rigorously imbued or are overcome by raging hormones.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  11. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    2,970
    Likes Received:
    198
    If no-one does it, then it doesn't happen.
    Do you want to start an online document to capture these things, see if it gains traction, then pass it on.
     
  12. Archerlite

    Archerlite Made the Cut

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2018
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi,
    It's what I thought about when I said it.

    Like you said later, I find it also a bit irrelevant, but, as a referee, do you have the answer ? I have to say that I don't know what I would do.

    The rules say clearly that the bout starts at the first call of the referee and finishes when the time is over, or one fencers has scored the last touch. Since the referee has given the last touch, the bout is finished. What's more, the sanction for non-shaking hands says : «Deny to shake hands after the end of the bout».

    Waiting for that too. But those all come from tips that actually "experimented" referees give to the younger ones. I have heard some tips, or gave some. These are things you do to be sure the bout goes in a good way and everything' fine at the end. There is obviously no official guidance.
     
  13. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,298
    Likes Received:
    1,029
    t.87.3 specifies both when the bout is ended (cf. subsection a) and what happens in the event of an act against the spirit of sportsmanship, explicitly addressing the situation where the fencer has already left the strip (cf. subsection b).

    With regard to the referee exam question (the scenario starts with a 4-2 score, not a 4-4 score as described in this thread), the key point in the rule understanding being assessed is that the prohibition on removing one's mask before the referee calls halt (t.87.7) does NOT specify that the touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled. This is dissimilar to other offenses that can occur between the commands "fence" and "halt," where touches are annulled (e.g., corps-a-corps with jostling or to avoid being hit, touches made while falling, turning one's back, use of the non-sword hand or arm, etc.).

    B
     
  14. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    280
    Raise your hand if you've received "tips" from a senior referee that conflict with tips given by another senior referee. Raise both hands if they were on a rules interpretation question.
     
    jdude97 likes this.
  15. mfp

    mfp Podium

    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Messages:
    2,026
    Likes Received:
    335
    For amusement value, ask or watch various refs at NACs how they handle this:

    With no penalties given, Fencer X has been hit, without a touch registering for Fencer X. Fencer X immediately presents the weapon for testing by the referee. While performing the tests, the referee notes that the epee is missing one tip screw.
     
  16. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2001
    Messages:
    36,738
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    My favorite part of t.87.7 is the last sentence: a fencer "may under no circumstances address the Referee until the Referee has made his decision". Probably the most frequent rule violated in sabre fencing, and almost never punished. :D
     
  17. neevel

    neevel Armorer

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2000
    Messages:
    3,338
    Likes Received:
    302
    The current interpretation from the FIE Refereeing Commission is that there must be recognizable syllables from some language other than Klingon or Wookie in order for it to be considered "addressing". ;)
     
    Inquartata likes this.
  18. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    280
    How many recognizable syllables do you hear in any language on strip?
     
  19. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Likes Received:
    177
    Oiuyt's seminar, taken after I was rated and experienced, informs many of my calls - and especially positioning. His t.87.3.b citation, viz."even if the fencer has already left the strip, any act against the spirit of sportsmanship such as *violently or dangerously* throwing one’s mask (or any other piece of equipment) will be penalized" explains victors' energetically directing or flipping their mask to the ground not being penalized.
     
    Privateer likes this.
  20. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,298
    Likes Received:
    1,029
    At the risk of ruining the amusement value, but to help inform those who don't already know what mfp is alluding to, there are a number of senior referees who teach (unfortunately, reportedly including in official referee seminars) that one ought to look for a missing tip screw prior to testing the weapon and deny the test and not annul the touch if one screw is missing. This is not supported by the rules or conventions of the sport and is incorrect guidance.

    The relevant rules (in epee) are t.67 (and its five subsections) and t.68 (and its 11 subsections). A missing tip screw is not among the listed reasons against annulment. In practice, two missing tip screws (i.e., a missing tip) is one of the most quickly resolved situations leading to annulment of the touch against. It would be inconsistent for one missing screw to prevent annulment, but for two missing screws to allow for it. Noticing that the epee is missing one tip screw is irrelevant to the test. The referee ought to continue as before to determine whether there is a fault or failure in the electrical equipment that could result in a properly made touch not registering on the scoring apparatus. Regardless of the outcome of the testing and subsequent annulment (or not) of the previous touch, the epee is now non-conforming to the rules and ought to be replaced before fencing recommences.

    B
     

Share This Page