The right way to judge [Foil]

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by Malicia, May 19, 2019.

  1. Malicia

    Malicia DE Bracket

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    A another thread is : How some foil referees break rules
    Official rules are broken by those referees.
    The problem is simple

    * art t.83-2-d : "Actions, simple or compound, steps or feints which are executed with a bent arm, are not considered as attacks but as preparations"

    * art. t88 : "When compound attacks are made, the opponent has the right to stop-hit; but to be valid the stop hit must precede the conclusion of the attack by an interval of fencing time; that is to say that the stop hit must arrive before the attacker has begun the final movement of the attack".

    Attack on preparation and Stop hit made within a period of fencing time exist. It was, it is, judged - in the right way.

    Nowadays, we see fencers, going forward to get 10cm of blade in the belly, then to counter-attack.

    This thread is about some examples :

    Case n°1 - 1988 Olympics at 2min 43sec (warning : at this time, light were reversed)
    [​IMG]
    The referee has given point to fencer on the left: fencer on the right was doing executed several movements. When fencer on the right was hitted, he has no priority, because he didn't begin the final movement of the attack.
    Simple : straightening of the arm, the point aiming the valid target - and just hit! Because to parry is not possible or not useful!
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  2. ChrisL

    ChrisL DE Bracket

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    I'm not sure how to tag a user but someone should inform the moderators since this thread is quite unhelpfully titled and perhaps in the wrong section(?)

    There is nothing wrong with having a discussion (even one with not much discussion and more repetition) but it shouldn't be presented as "The right way" since new fencers may misunderstand the title.

    If you want to discuss how fencing should be that is fine but I feel the moderators of this forum have a duty to new fencers who may not be so aware by ensuring it is at least not presented so.
     
  3. Malicia

    Malicia DE Bracket

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    Case n°2 - 1989 World Fencing Championships - Men's Team Foil (Video - 24min13sec)
    For the referee, point for fencer on the left.
    [​IMG]
    The TV commentator agree and says : attack from left on preparation.

    2019, thirty years later, for the actual international referee, attack from fencer on the right.
    (Video 31min59sec)
    [​IMG]

    But the official rules, about fencing phrase, about foil convention have'nt change.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  4. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

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    I agree completely. Even if I thought Malicia was right in most of her examples -- and I do think one or two of them were bad calls -- I don't agree with her premise, and I don't think this is the right forum for her argument. Maybe we should have a forum called "The Way Things Ought to Be."
     
  5. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    How about an "Opinion" group. Similar to Andy Rooney's segments where he harps on a topic far too long.
     
  6. sdubinsky

    sdubinsky DE Bracket

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    come on guys, there has to be a limit to how much we feed the trolls
     
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  7. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    Not to knock Mitch..
    The ads at the top of the screen respond to clicks. The clicks generate money which keep the site open.
    If you don't like the thread, don't open it.
     
  8. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

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    Okay, but can the mods lock and merge this? This thread is not fundamentally different from the other thread, liked to by OP, that is still active. There's no good reason for this thread to exist separately.
     
  9. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    Much less in a Rules and Refs section, which was originally intended to display moderated answers.
    How do we get this and the other one moved into Watercooler?
     
  10. Emfuser

    Emfuser DE Bracket

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    Look. You have a (currently) 22 page thread of you stubbornly insisting that the way YOU want foil to be is the only correct way, largely because of the wording of the rules, and that the current conventions are practically a criminal conspiracy to screw over you and anyone who agrees with you. This is just a continuation of the same thread, with the same material, with your same mule-like stubbornness and obstinance.

    There's no reason this thread should exist separately from your other thread. It ran its course and you created this as a fresh thread to keep drumming your same points over and over again.
     
  11. Malicia

    Malicia DE Bracket

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    Case n°3 - 1989 World Fencing Championships - Men's Team Foil (Video - 40min10sec)
    For the referee, point for fencer on the left.
    [​IMG]
    We can hear : attack from left on preparation.

    The official rules was respected... at this time!
    Foil wasn't a shame, at this time!
     
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  12. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

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    yep

    I'm just not opening this thread again

    if we all just let it die, it will
     
  13. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Optimist.
     
  14. Michael Comte

    Michael Comte DE Bracket

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    Guys, you were asking some examples about how Malicia wanted foiled to be called, she shows you an example, that's all.
     
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  15. Malicia

    Malicia DE Bracket

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    Case n°4 - 1989 World Fencing Championships - Men's Team Foil (Video - 43min52sec)
    For the referee, point for fencer on the left.
    [​IMG]
    Yes, this is the point in line position.

    That's the rules!
    Article t84-1 : "If the attack is initiated when the opponent is ‘point in line’ (cf. t.15), the attacker must, first, deflect the opponent’s blade."

    Unfortunatly, in 2019, rules are broken.
    Compare to Katowice 2019 - 1H29min33s
    [​IMG]
    For the referee, attack from the right side.... But he hasn't seen the point in line position from the left side.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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  16. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    hmmm it seems the attack started already in both from the right prior to the left fencers coming into line
     
  17. posineg

    posineg DE Bracket

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    I on the otherhand do not see FotR attacking, just moving forward, no extension to declare a attack. In the second video, we can clearly see FotR pumping there elbow, which even if they might have extended before the pump, would leave them with a failed attack due to the pumping.
     
  18. jeff

    jeff Podium

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    These threads are a hoot. Just checking in to look around, and oh my! But sometimes the joke goes on too long.

    I'm definitely from a prior generation that saw the primacy of the extension as it was judged in the 1970s and even into the 1990s, so I sympathize with the attitude. There are calls that make no sense to me, and I believe that something valuable was discarded when "hand precedes torso" was made optional. But the world does not revolve to meet my preferences, more the pity. And I'm retired now, so it doesn't matter - I don't have a dog in this fight. The reality is that things are different now, and not always for bad, either.

    That said, there's a lot of false memories of the good old days (which I've seen correctly described in these posts by others in my age cohort. We argued over beat vs. parry back then in the same way (and I assure you that a beat on the blade by Uriah Jones, just mentioned elsewhere in the forum, would absolutely deviate your point, or by Albie Axelrod.) Point in line was also called arbitrarily, and what is a coupe if it isn't an action that bends the arm - yet we call it an attack anyway. If you look at the ancient rules books, they are incredibly vague about what constitutes the beginning of an attack, let alone when it ends. I had a CF noodnik trying to argue with me that the arm had to be completely extended to have ROW. How did he know? Because "my master trained at Santelli's and that's how it was taught" Very nice, I said - I trained there too, and that was not what was taught there.

    If fencing was "tilting at windmills" it would be more apt, but things are different now. Deal or go home.

    Besides, you're all revisionists now, since the rules were renumbered and hallowed items like t.56 are t.anything-else. :)
     
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  19. Michael Comte

    Michael Comte DE Bracket

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    Which ones?
     
  20. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

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    Interesting that you bring up Albie, who was somewhat ‘famous’ for getting the calls on ‘parrys’ on your blade’s forte, as he moved in, that really did NOT displace your blade or take you off line.
    And yet..:
     

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