Super close distance hitting - rules?

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by lovefoil, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    I see a lot of very close hits in foil. Both men's and women's. I don't remember these being allowed in the past because of safety reasons. Are there new rules around this or they just call Corp-a-Corp less frequently? Did anyone else noticed?
     
  2. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    So long as you don't come into physical contact, infighting has always been allowed.

    Where did you fence that it wasn't?
     
  3. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    Assuming you're referring to in-fighting - this is a long-time trend, lessened this past season with the re-implementation of the rear-shoulder-reversing-prohibition. We've gone through this cycle before (prohibited-allowed-prohibited now), so I anticipate a future rule change allowing again.
     
  4. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    Here's the applicable rule:
    It has not changed recently.

    B
     
  5. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    If there hasn't been body contact or an infraction, no one has crossed, both fencers can still wield their weapons, and the official can follow their action, they're still fencing. "Being close" does not cause a halt.

    Some of what you're seeing is continued adaptation to the timing, causing more fencers to collapse the distance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  6. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    There has never been a "rule" disallowing fencing at close distance, as far as I know. Referees may halt the bout when fencers were unable to wield their blades effectively or the fencing become confused (t.54(2)). You might be confusing a simple referee convention of stopping bouts too early with a "rule".

    Because the speed of footwork has increased, and foil fencers are keeping their blades protected until the last possible moment before finishing their extensions, distances are collapsing more often than they did twenty years ago (if this is what you mean by "the past"). It's a natural outgrowth of the changing nature of the sport, and not the result of any significant rule changes.
     
  7. Emerald101

    Emerald101 Rookie

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    From the rulebook (t.19): "Fencing at close quarters is allowed so long as the competitors can wield their weapons correctly and the Referee can, in foil and sabre, follow the phrase."

    Failing Corps a Corps, a penalty, (like reversing shoulders) or as described above, fencing at close distance is fully permitted.
     
  8. Shivi

    Shivi Made the Cut

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    Personally, I find refs are calling the halt much later during close fight than in the past. It seems (to me) to go along with a shift in the interpretation of what constitutes an attack.
     
  9. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    Yes, I was referring to in-fighting and yes it seems that the halt is called later. t.19 seems to address fencers wielding their weapons and refs being able to follow the action. Is there any consideration for getting hurt? These close encounters with sudden high-speed movements can get dangerous. Like when someone gets elbowed in the mask while the fencer is trying to do a high parry.
     
  10. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    We're instructed to allow fencing to continue as long as it can - as long as we can follow it. Never seen someone get hurt from in-fighting, though was mask-elbowed by a footballer who forgot he was fencing vs. blocking.
     
  11. atouchortwo

    atouchortwo Made the Cut

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    Another thing might be happening here - some clubs have internal rules of what is allowed, maybe because of safety concerns, and maybe as coaches' desperate attempt to rebalance the relationship between the technique and instinctive tactics with younger fencers.

    We recently had a complaint from a parent of a visiting fencer that the "fleche is not allowed at Y10 level"...
     
  12. Privateer

    Privateer DE Bracket

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    i've heard stuff like this from some school team members and parents.
     
  13. Steve Khinoy

    Steve Khinoy DE Bracket

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    Especially with younger fencers, there are perfectly legal moves I would never allow in the club (for safety and pedagogical reasons). I explain: "You are practicing, not fighting." That's the short version. The rules prohibit a lot of fighting also.
     
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  14. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

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    Like what? I can't think of a single legal action that I would completely disallow at the club.
     
  15. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    This isn't the proper forum for a discussion but I'd guess an example might be (in epee) repeatedly beating your opponent's blade as hard as possible. Likely to damage equipment, potentially injure people, and is not a form that should be encouraged in practice.
     

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