"Starting counterattack too early"

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by Chico, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Chico

    Chico Rookie

    Aug 29, 2017
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    Have seen this called occasionally, and wondering about it.

    (Sabre match): RH fencer is advancing, LH fencer retreating. RH fencer lunges first, LH fencer attempts to parry by distance only and then counterattack, both lights go off at the end of the action.
    The referee calls it straight attack from the right, touche. Upon being asked to review the video, the referee concedes that RH fencer actually did have their foot land first before the touch was made (making it a remise), however they believe the LH fencer began to counterattack before the foot had landed, and therefore the point was still awarded to the RH fencer.

    So there is the part that doesn't make sense to me: RH fencer has priority during their attack, and LH fencer counterattacks into it; if RH fencer fails the attack, priority should then shift to the LH fencer, who is already in the middle of striking back, and the touch should be awarded to LH fencer? Why is the counterattack nullified if it starts prior to the end of the first attack (and lands after that first attack has failed)?
  2. keropie

    keropie Podium

    Sep 10, 2005
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    Obligatory: without video, we're all just making noise on the internet.
    That being said, the current interpretation that I've been given is that the attack ends 'just after' the foot reaches the ground. So, if the foot hits the ground and the smoothly continued extension hits ~immediately-ish then it's generally called attack arrives.

    That doesn't really explain why the 'counter attack was too soon.' I don't have a good answer for that. I guess the only interpretation I could come up with would be that the counterattack (we all agree that's what it is) is only going to be awarded if the attacker makes a mistake, and the official feels like this 'smoothly continued extension' is not a sufficient mistake. But they would feel that if the 'defender' were to wait for the initial attack to be short, and turn the corner and attack back (meaning the action starts after the attack fails), the would reward the defender.

    To me, it's a strange dichotomy. But the only other thing I could imagine is that the official is saying that the 'early' counterattack misses in the same phrase that the attack misses, so the action afterwards is a remise of the counterattack vs. a remise of the attack?
  3. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

    Dec 18, 2007
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    How are they phrasing this call? The "concession"? Because that give insight into what they are seeing (and often why they're calling it).
  4. mpego1

    mpego1 Rookie

    Mar 5, 2017
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    Essentially because it was a counter attack...the RH fencer will only loose ROW normally with a cut or blade swipe or parry, or beat, normally the foot landing is not going to be enough to get the call your way...you in essence explained it your self, the LH fencer attacks into the RH fencers attack...if you do that you have got to get away with a one lighter, and you can do that if the gauge the distance and tempo correctly, meaning you are both close enough to hit, and your opponent does something like hesitate, pull back, pump, change lines, stutter in some way...you close just enough to land, then get out or evade or block them out (bind or parry) - 180 ms expires and then they land - the only light on the box is yours, but if they land within that 180 ms timer, and you double out it may be theirs depending on the how the action gets called. For a distance pull you need to pull them into the attack (committed with a lunge or extension), then control the distance via retreat, pulling your arm back, leaning back enough to make them miss, or evade by removing target area - (then their foot lands with a cut, or you parry, or you beat their blade - no light in that tempo) now you go hard and fast and land - your touch (even if it becomes a double) - timing, distance and self control, split by a fine hair in Sabre are everything.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018

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