Soft-covered Chest Protectors for SN & Beyond

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by Mac A. Bee, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. brtech

    brtech Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,313
    Likes Received:
    167
    I was careless with my words. The "Material" has to be homologated, the underlying hard plastic doesn't. What is currently available is a complete protector, but it's possible a vendor could homologate only the outer "material".
     
  2. Mergs

    Mergs Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2000
    Messages:
    3,493
    Likes Received:
    208
    Meh, why search when I've been watching this site for 18 years! Yes, I know that there have been many threads on this, but IIRC, the vast majority of the discussions have been, as you pointed out, regarding the male foilists wearing the chest plates - ostensibly - for the reason you pointed out. What I don't remember, and yes the brain is getting a bit 'sievey' with age, that there was little to no discussion of women having/complaining about this 'problem'. I may be wrong.

    As for being concerned about coder's sweat, is there such a thing? :p
     
  3. Bellicose Patriot

    Bellicose Patriot Made the Cut

    Joined:
    May 31, 2014
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    1
    Revised rule m.25.3 approved on April 12th 2018 by USA Fencing Board of Directors to be implemented on June 28th 2018 and August 1st 2018

    I am glad to see that this revision was written and disseminated in a logical manner (not) …however the enforcement for this change might now possibly trickle down to the “Armory Table”?…

    All of the other changes that have required inspection have… because, the referees complain that theses checks take up too much time…therefore they should be checked at control…because there is no time constraint at control and armorers have all the time in the world (ask anyone who has stood on line at an event…they might disagree with you)


    Gloves are a good example…a hole is a hole …is a hole…If it’s large enough to catch a blade or improper closure might cause injury to the fencers hand…NO GOOD!...a miss-weave or discoloration or Pin prick…GOOD! (Saber gloves being the exception…only because of the conductive material of the glove)…I have seen some concerned referees recheck gloves for more than just inspection tags (because they could have been damaged after inspection) using the very complicated technique as follows

    1) Fencer extends gloved hand palm down…(stamp checked…look for holes)
    2) Rotate hand 180 degrees…(check for holes…check Velcro)

    Time allotted 4-5 seconds…not mandatory but wise…by the by (these are the same referees that also have not allowed their combatants to fence with improperly secured masks…our current impending…soon to be decided upon…rule changie nightmare)…This same procedure could have been employed sans tag inspectionbut it takes too much time!...

    At control armorers have all the time in the world (but not if you want your events to start on time) which is why some very nice (and sometimes even qualified) referees often come by to offer help to the overburdened, overstressed armory that has “all the time in the world” to check equipment…

    Sooo…control might now have an additional item to inspect…here is why…the homologation tag… on the current issue it can be easily inspected when the jacket is opened…but this takes time...sometimes I have even noticed that a plastron inspection is not always done prior to the bout by some referees that are “running behind scheduleto save time

    This should not be an issue because the fencer should have had to be checked for a plastron and breast/chest protector (optional for men…compulsory for women…worn below plastron for foil) this requires the combatant to open his or her jacket…however logic seldom plays a large part!!!

    This now only applies to foil… nothing prevents an epee fencer from wearing a hard surfaced plastic chest protector directly under his or her jacket…over his or her plastron…isn’t this the same type of scoring issue that happens in foil?…or is it that epee coaches don’t bitch…moan… and cry as much as foil coaches over scoring issues…lest we forget this is not a safety issue
     
  4. mfp

    mfp Podium

    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Messages:
    1,920
    Likes Received:
    254
    No.
     
    Goldgar likes this.
  5. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,509
    Likes Received:
    134
    IIRC that was the FIE's first attempt, so probably about 2005. It was soon modified to allow the CP to be worn over a t-shirt, but underneath the underarm protector (the current rule).

    The USFA never adopted the FIE's stance, only requiring the CP be worn underneath the jacket (IIRC this was an emergency rule change which was put into place after a few enterprising foilist tried wearing their CP's between their jacket and lame, and actually may predate any of the FIE's rules by a few weeks).
     
  6. Bellicose Patriot

    Bellicose Patriot Made the Cut

    Joined:
    May 31, 2014
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    1
    I understand and are aware of this …also am aware that chest area is not the primary target area as it is in foil…however a point weapon is still a point weapon and the mechanics of the altered contact between the tip (button) and the altered surface produced by the wearing of the rigid plastic directly under the jacket is still the same…although not as significant as it is in foil it still gives an edge to the wearer...
     
  7. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,590
    Likes Received:
    159
    However, in foil the tip must be depressed, on target, for 14 milliseconds, while in epee it's only 2ms. That is why hard chest protectors can shed touches in foil, and really have no effect in epee.
     
    DangerMouse and AStoddard like this.
  8. AStoddard

    AStoddard Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    6
    The problem isn't the tip sliding but rather it bouncing, and so not registering a 14ms contact time. That is most likely to happen when the chest protector is flat plate, such as worn by men. So it is more of an issue in men's fencing - along with the perception that most men have much less need of chest protection so the only reason for wearing it is to attempt to game the scoring system.
     
    Strytllr likes this.
  9. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,518
    Likes Received:
    137
    From USA Fencing "New Foil Chest Protector Rule to be Implemented This Summer 04/16/2018, 3:45pm CDT ...For more information on how to place an order for the new chest protector from one of USA Fencing’s vendors, please visit: Absolute Fencing Gear, Alliance Fencing Equipment, Blue Gauntlet, The Fencing Outlet, The Fencing Post, Leon Paul, Radical Fencing, Sword Masters" Checking just BG and LP, neither have either new protectors or conversion kits.:confused:
     
  10. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    2,845
    Likes Received:
    164
    Refs at tournaments I go to check for the plastron. This would be a quick check for the plastron and the chest-plate under.
    How will a ref check for women's disks?
     
  11. brtech

    brtech Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,313
    Likes Received:
    167
    Today, a ref verifies a woman is wearing a chest protector, and that it's below the plastron. For a man wearing a chest protector, the ref checks that it's underneath the plastron. This rule change requires the ref to see the FIE mark on the soft covering. On the current products, it's at the center top of the material.
     
  12. mfp

    mfp Podium

    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Messages:
    1,920
    Likes Received:
    254
    Incorrect.

    Today, if a ref at a USA Fencing sanctioned event checks that a chest protector is below the plastron, then they are doing it wrong. There is no such requirement that applies today in the current USA Fencing rules.
     
  13. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    2,845
    Likes Received:
    164
    I'm not talking about the full-chest protector. As some said on here, the don't fit correctly. And the rule says, "breast / chest protector".
    How will a ref verify https://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shopping/product_info.php/products_id/75/cPath/13_76 are in the correct position, with the correct marking.

    Edit: Re-reading the first post, a case can be made that a chest-protector is the only allowable method to protect the breast / chest area in Foil. Or a case could be made that whole chest-protectors need to have the extra padding, but breast-only protectors do not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 at 2:27 PM
  14. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    10
    At the moment none of the manufacturers have made a hubcap style that meet the new requirements. If they do I imagine they will have to be pulled out to show the referee or put in after checking in with the referee.
     
  15. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    541
    Likes Received:
    55
    But more specifically, the rule now says that any chest protector must be worn under the plastron. Since disc breast protectors are not typically worn in that way, will they be allowed at all?
    It doesn't seem clear whether breast disc protectors will be allowed or not going forward, or if so, whether they will require this additional material.
     
  16. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    10
    Most people I know that use them put them in their sport bra. Not in the jacket pockets.
     
  17. jfarmer

    jfarmer DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    932
    Likes Received:
    36
    Absolute has theirs listed. $11 more ($38 vs. $27)
    https://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shopping/product_info.php/products_id/1552/cPath/13_76

    https://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shopping/product_info.php/products_id/1553/cPath/13_76
     
  18. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    10
  19. jfarmer

    jfarmer DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    932
    Likes Received:
    36
    You are correct, most women foilist didn't complain about it, they just learned to fence by "making a valid touch" ;-)

    Most traffic was of the "The only reason a male would wear a chest protector is to cheat.." ilk, which I binned into the "too stupid to listen to" category ...

    Well after I escaped from the code mines for the project management dungeon, did make them sweat a bit...

    Nowadays, I just b$tch with a feature I was using gets twisted sideways by some "improvement"...
     
  20. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2013
    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    211
    Same way we check now: "knock-knock" (the fencer does the tapping--not me!)
     

Share This Page