So what up with the “cadre?”

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by lovefoil, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

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    I completely agree that US Fencing needs better transparency and that we should ask these questions.
     
  2. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    I was able to talk to someone at the usfa and it appears several people on the list actually paid their own trips ( including managers and others who want to learn and perhaps paid in the future), sponsored as personal coaches (not all4 epee coaches paid), and some were there for various reasons and selected and funded by their own groups. There is no comprehensive official listing unfortunately that I was looking for, but getting several answers from Dan and armorers on the forum, my friends who are more involved with the USFA, and the USFA rep directly, I do feel “calmer.” Also, while there are several large events done by the US, the cadet/junior world championships has a very different logistic as groups are constantly traveling in and out based on the new FIE format of the events. Accreditiation, training facility needs, meetings, equipment, protocols require a different type of organization. So HQ personnel going actually makes more sense now. One day we might have a comprehensive list to provide the transparency needed as we all have a skin in the game. Fingers crossed. I also agreed that I will be volunteering from next season and assist with any needed improvement
     
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  3. pillow

    pillow Podium

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    I would note that even though there are "Russian sounding names" on the cadre list, there has been NO COLLUSION between those individuals and the USFA. I would also add that even though the expense account for the Junior/Cadet Worlds is "non-transparent," this does NOT rise to the level of OBSTRUCTION by Don Anthony.

    Relax--it's business as usual. Just substitute the words "Colorado Springs" for "Chinatown" in the movie quote and move along.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  4. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Brilliant. :D
     
  5. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    No! No! NO! Inq,
    That's dated, and it's Brit to Boot.
    The new buzz is PERFECT!!
    All the millineals at the best fast food joints are saying "PERFECT".
    "You want onions, fries and a coke with that? PERFECT"
    So update, Man!
    Sorry I was trying to find you in SLC but just couldn't pick up your trail.
    Thought I had you a couple of times but they were locals.
    Maybe in where ever it is National Championships are going to be held.
     
  6. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    Being cadre 3 times, I want to add some information. First as has been said earlier, not all are paid. You might check the Operations Manual for a list of the 'Official' (paid) cadre. You will only see my name once. There are more cadre for Jr.'s then Sr.'s as there are more fencers, as well as being minors. On most days you have up to 8 fencers fencing at any one time and being minors, they are never left alone. A cadre is at the piste while they are fencing. This is done for the Sr.'s, but is not drilled into the cadre. The 3 exceptions is the Team Captain, Trainer and Armorer. That is because they are responsible for all the fencers. There is a central location, where the first 2 stay and the Armorer rotates through each strip. If there are 2, the second will stay at the central location. That is over half of the cadre available. The rest watch over those not fencing. They don't all stay together. One squad might go sightseeing, one might go to practice. You need the numbers.

    For the 2001 Sr.'s you will notice there is one position that was not normal until then. If you had looked at a list of cadre, it would have been a lot larger. Much of the team were Jr.'s, especially the ladies. There were a number of people who were asked to volunteer, I was one of them. We did get a shared room and a flight (the IOC helped with that), but we didn't get any compensation.

    I will agree that it is a lot of money, but it is done to support and protect the fencers.
     
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  7. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    I am elusive.
     
  8. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    That's why he wears dark glasses, so he'll be hard to recognize.
     
  9. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Hint: I am not Alex Gioella. Neither am I Ryan Matt. :)
     
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  10. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Well played, sir!
     
  11. kmecke

    kmecke Made the Cut

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    Hi Guys, I agree with the transparency issue, but I would like to inject a positive note...

    It was my first trip to a WC. Traveling with an elderly, not very mobile, person to a town 3 hours from the airport, after 9 hours in the air, I was a bit nervous. I will tell you that the US team was incredibly well organized and totally professional. Every time I ran into a hiccup or had questions, I texted someone and got an answer and/or help within seconds- not an exaggeration.

    The Medical Staff that came with' was definitely necessary and utilized (at least for epee). I understand that they were also great diplomatic envoys, giving 2nd opinions and goodwill to other nations when asked. Let's face it, USA needs all the good PR it can get.

    Maybe someone else can explain the equipment embargo as I didn't really 'get it'. All I know is 'kid' had to be prepared with 2 sets of weapons, 1 set for competition and 1 set for practice. Between individuals coming in and out of town on a constant basis + embargo timing + repairs, I saw a lot of rushing around. I'm assuming they had more than enough work to keep them busy. It's not like mom or dad in the stands could get the weapon, run up the escalator to the third level where the vendors were, get stuff repaired then yell "heads up!" while javelin throwing it back to the floor of the venue. Floor access was strictly limited. It was all very 'by the book', the closest I've ever seen to what I would imagine it's like at the Olympics. (To digress, the venue was spectacular)

    re Epee Coaches: Sergey was Men's coach, Andrey was Women's and Sebastien was brought on last year (or year before?) to buff up USA international epee results. Kornel must have been there in a different capacity. I sat next to one of the 'Captains' at dinner one evening and was told they acted as direct liaisons between the athletes and the FIE. 'just guessing but it sounds like a advocate position and they may have paid their own way. Possibly to do with safe sport?? Not sure, but felt like a required position.

    re food expenses: Per diem is per diem, if anyone went over budget, it wouldn't be a USAF problem. That being said, food in Poland was REALLY GOOD and inexpensive relative to quality.

    Lastly, this event will be in Salt Lake City next year. FIE & Torun made a big deal over this with speeches and a hand off ceremony for the flag, etc., so I wouldn't be surprised if there were extra meetings and USAF staff needed for SLC prep.

    Overall, I can report that I did not see anyone 'chillaxing' in the hotel bar all day. No one felt superfluous. I'm not saying that the due paying members shouldn't be informed as to role of each Cadre individual, I just didn't want to leave this thread with the bad vibe it gave me when I first read it.
     
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  12. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    I'm not sure what is meant by 'embargo' but there are two reasons why competitors need separate practice weapons and cords:
    1. Control at a World Championships is an impound control- the gear is dropped off at control, where it will be subject to a full inspection of every aspect, and then returned (which may be the next day, depending on how many fencers or teams are submitting gear). Furthermore, the US team armorers will want to get the team members' equipment before being submitted, in order to do a full pre-check of all the things that will be inspected and to have time to fix anything that is broken or out of spec. Fencers will not have access to their gear while it is going through the pre-inspection and control (which might be a couple of days), so they will need additional gear to use for practice and coaching. Also, if a blade were to break in practice, it's not just a matter of buying a new blade and swapping it in, as the blade itself will have been marked, so the weapon with a new blade would need to be re-submitted.
    2. Once you get into the DEs, there is a call room where fencers will re-submit their weapons and body cords for re-inspection (body cord resistance, weights & shims, etc). Their gear will be held in the call room and brought out with them to the strip at the time of the DE bout. Hence, they will not have access to those weapons and cords for warm-up and coaching between DEs, and so will need a second set.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
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  13. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    First the competition equipment must be turned in the day before they compete and the Armorers need to have time to bring up everything up to US standards. The Armorers have great PR also. When I went the SOP was the US Armorer was allowed on the floor. No other armorers were allowed. We were there as we could and would be able to fix every other teams equipment.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  14. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    I once broke 4 blades in the course of a single DE tableau ( at a NAC ).

    Out of curiosity, how many weapons do fencers at World Cups usually submit in order to be sure of having enough if they should have a bad blade-breaking day? Or are maraging blades really so unbreakable that they can be confident that they will only need to submit the minimum 2 weapons?
     
  15. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    What we encourage is the maximum, 4 weapons, 3 body cords, 3 mask cords. What we get is sometimes the minimum (2 of each). They often allow 4 of the cords.

    What is interesting, before 2012 the maximum for the cords was 2! Which considering if one breaks you no longer have the minimum and could get a card for not having 2.
     
  16. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    World Championships, not World Cups. World Cups do not have a full impound control, and in fact frequently have control that is much less rigorous than at an NAC (particularly in, shall we say, some countries that were not historically affiliated with NATO prior to the 1990s). Hence the old saw about "It passed at the World Cup last week." that we keep hearing at the armory table.
     
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  17. kmecke

    kmecke Made the Cut

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    Right! Impound not Embargo. :oops: I knew it referenced trade laws in some way.
    DS usually has 4 weapons but we added an extra 2.
     
  18. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Another question: IIRC maraging blades are not required for sabre, correct? At least at the vet world championships I always used regular S+M blades and there was never an issue with control.
     
  19. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    That's correct. There's no FIE homolgation requirement (i.e., maraging steel) for sabre blades- they just have to meet the specs (length, flexibility, dimensions of the fold-over at the end, etc) stated in the rules. At a World Championships, they will be inspected for those items and marked.
     
  20. KD5MDK

    KD5MDK Moderator

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    The role of Captain is expressly called out in the Rules. Think of them as the lawyers for the athletes. If there is a protest at a team event, the Captain is the one to do it. You want the most persuasive, correct and respectable person doing that, who may not necessarily be the same person as the coach who can focus a particular athlete tactically.
     
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