So what up with the “cadre?”

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by lovefoil, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    I am puzzled how many people in the “cadre” category traveled to the cadet/junior worlds and spent extensive time there, got paid for everything and got all the national clothing as well. What is the history behind this and who a heck is deciding who goes? Who controls the budget and why don’ t they sponsor more personal coaches who can play the role of cadre? 20 people for 40 athletes beside the personal coaches! Money can be also better spent on supporting these kids to go to world cups! Anyone knows the story?

    Captains, directors, executive director, managers, 2 Chiros mislabelled as doctors, etc...
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  2. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Same story as always...
     
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  3. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    But who is the decision maker????? Is there a committee? I want to ask some questions from them!
     
  4. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    Perhaps if you detailed your question a bit more the rest of us might find it interesting. What is the "cadre" category?
     
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  5. bbower

    bbower DE Bracket

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    You need some way to justify $200 entry fees for national tournaments ...
     
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  6. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    Well, here is the “cadre.” There is a tab on the travel summary called “cadre” for essential support personnel. There are 40 kids, 20 cadre, 88 personal coaches/family members...

    1 BABY SADA COM 4-Apr 15-Apr
    2 DANILOV SERGEY ME 10-Apr 15-Apr
    3 DOS SANTOS SEBASTIEN EPEE DIR. 11-Apr 15-Apr
    4 EKEREN KRIS EXECUTIVE DIR 6-Apr 10-Apr
    5 GEVA ANDREY WE Y 9-Apr 15-Apr
    6 JOMANTAS NICOLE COMM. 5-Apr 15-Apr
    7 KORFANTY EDWARD WS 3-Apr 11-Apr
    8 LASKER TERRENCE MS 3-Apr 9-Apr
    9 LITTEN KAITLYN MANAGER 2-Apr 20-Apr
    10 MCCLAIN MICHAEL WF 6-Apr 12-Apr
    11 MASSIALAS GREG MF 6-Apr 12-Apr
    12 MOODY JAMES CAPTAIN 3-Apr 15-Apr
    13 MOREY ELIZABETH ARMORER 3-Apr 15-Apr
    14 PORTER MATTHEW ARMORER 3-Apr 15-Apr
    15 SCHNEIDER DARIA CAPTAIN 3-Apr 15-Apr
    16 SUMMERS JEREMY MEDICAL 3-Apr 15-Apr
    17 STRONG-SIMMONS CHRISTINE CADRE 4-Apr11-Apr
    18 UDVARHELYI KORNEL P.C 11-Apr 14-Apr
    19 WIMP KRISTIN MEDICAL 3-Apr 15-Apr
    20 YAMIN JENNIFER MANAGER
     
  7. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    Here is a sample of the hotel charges... dates, rate per day and total... on top of this there are the plane tickets, transportation charge 80 euros per person to/from airport, Daily expenses, and outfits. Is this ok with everyone???


    1 JENNIFER YAMIN 2-Apr 7-Apr TEAM ROOM 13 € 125.00 € 1,625.00
    KRIS EKEREN 6-Apr 10-Apr
    JENNIFER YAMIN 10-Apr 15-Apr
    2 KAITLYN LITTEN 2-Apr 15-Apr TEAM ROOM 13 € 125.00 € 1,625.00
    PAGE GUNNING 13-Apr 15-Apr
    3 JEREMY SUMMERS 3-Apr 15-Apr SINGLE 12 € 80.00 € 960.00
    4 KRISTIN WIMP 3-Apr 15-Apr SINGLE 12 € 80.00 € 960.00
    5 MATHEW PORTER 3-Apr 15-Apr SINGLE 12 € 80.00 € 960.00
    6 DARIA SCHNEIDER 3-Apr 15-Apr TEAM ROOM 12 € 125.00 € 1,500.00
    SPENCER LUND & FINN LUND
    7 JAMES MOODY 3-Apr 15-Apr SINGLE 12 € 80.00 € 960.00
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  8. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    Well, I don't recognize all the names but do several such as the armorers, Greg Massialas who is the national coach, Kris Ekeren and maybe a couple of others. So your issue/question is who approves all these people and are they all necessary? Good question, think some of them are superfluous? Possibly. I don't see anyone classed as a referee - they are required or the NGB pays for locals. The armorers are of course for support. What do the others do. Be curious to learn.
     
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  9. Ancientepee

    Ancientepee Podium

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    There is not one person or even one group that picks the cadre. Some, like the referees, are not even picked by the USFA but rather are designated by the FIE. The technicians and medical staff are picked by different committees in the USFA than the one(s) that pick the weapon captains, weapon coaches, team manager, and team captain. Some of the attendees are there not as true cadre members to support the day-to-day operation of the team but to attend FIE committee meetings. Some attend to gain experience and knowledge in the hopes of being a paid cadre person in the future and pay all or most of their expenses. Some are there for only two or three days. So your question would require a detailed, complex answer which would be difficult to give here.
     
  10. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    Ok so specifically:
    1. What is the role of 1, 4, 6, 9, 12, 15, 17, 20 at this event? They never go to worlds cups for example when there are 20 fencers travel in cadet and 12 in junior. So do we really need them at Worlds? 6-8 fencers fence per day, they arrive 2-3 days before the event and leave right after.
    2, why 3 coaches in men’s epee? 2, 3, 18
    3. Why 2 armorers? Kids arrive for short periods of time with multiple weapons just like to other international events and never have an armorer. So one would not be enough? Do we even need one? The coaches and kids fix weapons, the local’s have armorers, there are vendors...
    4. Why 2 chiropractors? Why any chiro? They are pseudo medical personnel. Even a physio would be better. Medical is provided by organizer or FIE. How much are they really utilized?

    So if several different committees or groups decide, isn’t there one overall “worlds” budget with someone responsible of controlling the expenses? And why the money is not spent towards results, like supporting world cups or personal coaches? There were many other personnel like Don and 2 girls with “US trainer” accreditation and refs and others... it would be nice to see a comprehensive list with the details of who is paid by USFA and who is paid by FIE ( refs, maybe Don?, etc) ....seems very excessive..The 20 people I listed above are fully sponsored by the USFA. And yes the NAC fees are very high and parents have to pay to see their kids fence now. So there should be much more transparency and much more conservative decision over budgets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  11. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Perhaps, as I have heard it posited with regard to the "consensus interpretations" of the rules, no one decides these things. No one is responsible; no one is accountable; no one is to blame ( if there can be said to be blame at all ). The cadre just grew organically---sprang like Athena from the brow of Zeus, fully mature and armed. The list generated itself, as it were.

    It just happened, no one knows quite how. Best not to ask any further.

    Hey, if you're going to start asking about why bureaucracies operate as they do and spend the monies in the ways they do, well, we're all through the looking glass!
     
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  12. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Do you have ANY idea of how much work is involved for the armorers at a world championship?? It's more than one person can do. Matty is great for a reason....but even he needs rest.
     
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  13. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    Certainly an interesting question. But how many of these people are being paid by our NGB and how many are traveling on their own dime -
    If they're paying their own way or even if the NGB is supporting them for reasons such as attending meetings. And like our own NAC's sometimes the only time people can get together is at a major event. Then I don't see an issue. Though your question does have me questioning how we distribute our somewhat limited funds. I did hear comments at past VET world championships that there were supernumerary people being paid for by the NGB.
     
  14. dberke

    dberke Podium

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    lovefoil, I'm guessing you've never been to a World Championships before.

    #1 and 7 are communications people whose job it is to keep everyone back home up-to-date on how the US fencers are doing, via social media, the USFA website, photos, etc. That's an essential part of marketing the sport and keeping the people back home engaged.

    #4, 9, and 17 are likely there for meetings with the FIE and to observe the operations of the event. Remember, we're running this event next year... so having people there this year to observe how it's done makes a lot of sense. It's not like you can just "wing it" when running the World Championships.

    It's hard to describe the function of 12 & 15, but a lot of it is to be advocates for the athletes and to provide support as experienced fencers. Don't underestimate their value in helping keep the athletes focused.

    Jennifer (20) works her butt off to make sure things go smoothly for the athletes. She deals with the logistics and takes care of a lot of the mundane stuff so that the athletes don't have to.

    This I can't answer since I don't know the needs of the epee squads.

    This isn't a NAC. The USFA provides armorers who are responsible for keeping the equipment working and up to the much-higher standards required at the World Championships. Do you really want the athletes and coaches to be distracted by fixing tips and rewiring weapons? Or would you rather they focus on winning?

    And, unlike a NAC, the vendors there generally don't do repairs. They are there to sell equipment.

    I'm not sure where you got the impression that these are chiropractors - they are experienced medical personnel who are there to see to the health of the athletes. (Jeremy is, in fact, on the FIE Medical Commission.)

    I can't speak to how all of this is budgeted, but I suspect it's a combination of out of the USFA general budget, the squad budgets, and the squad fees paid by the athletes. (And I'm pretty sure that everyone has to pay for their own team jackets/warm-ups... I know that is the case for those going to Vet World Championships.)

    Given that the USFA's mission is to generate athletes who can win at the World Championships and Olympics, it would seem reasonable for them to spend money to send people to... the World Championships. Otherwise, what's the point?

    The number of support people each country can send is limited by the FIE and it is based on the number of athletes they send. Since we have a lot of fencers, it requires a lot of support people. This isn't unusual at all - all of the major fencing countries use up their quota and send a similar mix of people - coaches, armorers, medical, and support staff. It would be absurd if we didn't do the same.

    Dan
     
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  15. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    These people ARE paid by the USFA. The spreadsheet indicates it. There might be others who are not listed above, who paid by the FIE, maybe like refs. Would Donald Anthony be paid by the FIE or USFA? Again, there is no transparency. Athletes and parents who sponsor the coaches don’t see what all these people do at the event. They supposed to be support staff, but don’t you think it is a reasonable question that if they are there to support your kid then you and/or your kid knows what are they Doing? The support the kids need are their coaches, primarily. And since we have a skin in the game and paying the coaches and everyone pays significant NAC fees among others to fund all these events, we should get a reasonable explanation. So who I need to ask and send my concerns to?

    As it relates to the armorers, I don’t know who is good and not, the simple question is whether armorers are needed at all. There are more fencers going to cadet international events and junior world cups and there are no armorers. So obviously either someone else does all the work, or it is not essential. That is the point.
     
  16. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    Dan, thank you! There is some useful information here and more specifics. I don’t necessarily agree with all, but at least there is some reasoning. Jennifer is definitely a good one and can handle a lot. She is visible for everyone and I would definitely say she is support. About Jeremy:” Summers joined the USA Fencing Sports Medicine staff in 2009 and has worked as a chiropractor and athletic trainer on both the North American and World Cup circuits” I still believe a physio would be more appropriate. That is what other countries would send, if they do, or a physician. I know only Dr. Kamuti in person from the FIE medical commission. He was a very good surgeon, now retired.

    Yes, I have been at world championships, but that is not the point. There are many athletes and parents have the same questions, so obviously it is not clear what they do and many would not consider several of them “essential.” I asked coaches who travel for years with their athletes, and the answer I got is, that it is always like this. Just as some others mentioned in the blog. As for other countries, you would see more sponsorship for coaches for sure, because that is the priority to deliver the results. Maybe one media person, one armorer, one medical staff, no athlete advocates, and staff would be working on the events for years as part of the team to learn how to run events. The US organizes many large events and international events where these skills could be obtained. Also, other countries are supported by their governments. Huge difference. Parents are not funding the coaches and not contributing to the “cadre” to travel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  17. ChrisL

    ChrisL Made the Cut

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    FYI: At Worlds the referees are sourced and paid for by the FIE, the respective nations do not supply referees for championships as they do for Junior and Cadet world cups. This is the same for senior world cups.
     
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  18. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

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    As far as 2 armorers for the USA team, I'll paraphrase the GoT and say "You know nothing!"

    Normally, a single armorer will be responsible for maintaining and getting the team's equipment qualified for a senior World Championship team. That consists of 6 teams (3 fencers/team plus 1 alternate). All totaled, that's 24 sets of equipment that needs to be able to meet and pass trough the equipment inspection. A set of equipment will include 4 weapons, 3 body cords, 3 mask cords, masks, gloves, lames, uniforms (jacket, knickers, socks, plastron).

    Each weapon has to be checked for legal length, blade stiffness, guard size, tip functions, electrical resistance, etc. Masks have to be checked for safety and foil (and saber) masks also checked for lame resistance. Uniforms have to be checked for the FIE tags, logos on knickers, sock colors, etc.

    In addition to what equipment that needs to be processed through the equipment inspection, there's the practice equipment that also needs to be maintained and repaired during the tournament.

    For the Junior and Cadet World Championships, it's double the work. Add in that you're only allowed to submit equipment for inspection during preset time periods. Also include that most times, the condition of fencer's equipment can vary anywhere from excellent condition to a bag of crap.

    The two assigned armorers to the USA team will have their hands full. I wouldn't be surprised if both armorers will be working late into the evenings each day getting equipment ready and repairing practice equipment.

    As to who the armorers are, Matthew Porter is a 3 time Olympic armorer and is well respected internationally and by members of team, coaches, and the rest of the cadre. Liz Morey is one of our USA Semi head techs. She usually coordinates the set up and equipment inspection at least 1 NAC each season. Matthew and Liz are both well respected in the USA the armory community.

    As to the equipment inspections at other international events, it will vary quite a bit depending on where the event is being held, the schedule, and the availability of qualified people to check equipment. I've worked as a tournament armorer at the past 3 FIE foil tournaments held in the United States. We only have 1.5 days to set up the venue, do equipment inspection, and maintain scoring equipment during the event. So, we're limited to doing a NAC style equipment check on masks, gloves, body wires, lames. It's enough to insure that the competition is fair and safe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  19. lovefoil

    lovefoil Made the Cut

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    I never questioned the qualification of the armorers, but the need. I didn’t realize it was a different process than world cups and grand Prix where the fencers are on their own and the organizers validate.
     
  20. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    *Team Warm-ups Drift*: Vets - yes, others - no. Bone of contention.
     

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