SN Div 1 Men's Epee has 159 fencers, but needed 160 fencers for top 64 to earn points

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by Rollhigher, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Organizers who avoid pools of 5 are to be commended. Organizers of events (qualifiers or otherwise) who routinely use pools of 5 vs other options will get reputations for doing so and people will pass on going to their events.

    For example: a D1A ROC organizer this past season ran a 20 person event using four 5-person pools, contrary to ROC specs. Then to top it off out of the four people assigned to referee the pools, only one had a referee rating, and another who's over 18 lacked the required background check. Why should people travel to such poorly run events?
     
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  2. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    A Y10 RYC is a direct qualifier to nationals. They only have to fence in one and they're qualified. As it was, these were newer parents and a newer fencer to regional events, and their reaction to finding out that there would be 100 fencers in the event at nationals was epic in that they immediately thought it would be one enormous pool, since that's what they saw at the RYC. Haha!

    As you said. there is always something to complain about, either too small and quick or too big and long.
     
  3. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    While I agree with the assessment in your example, I disagree with your opinion of 5 person pools. Math-wise, 7 is always preferable or 6 if you have an odd number. But from an interest running events within a set space of time, I don't really see the issue. And I have run numerous 5 person pool tournaments, and the general feedback i continue to get is something along the lines of "thank you that the tournament was done efficiently and within a decent time frame".
     
  4. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    A quick look at askfred results for the St Louis division shows things like an event with 35 fencers run using 7 pools of 5 (and apparently losing a fencer during pools dropping one pool down to four fencers):

    https://askfred.net/Results/roundResults.php?seq=1&event_id=149957

    No idea if that's one of yours or not, but that sort of pool construction if done around here would incur complaints all around and penalty fines for the organizer if it were a Bay Cup event.

    Fencers in our area go to tournaments to ... fence. They expect "a decent amount of fencing" along with "the tournament was done efficiently and within a decent time frame". Pools of 5 short-change them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  5. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    It was not, but I attended it.
    And I have already established that your Bay Cup area is so anomalous to anything I have ever dealt with, I can hardly ever use it as a comparison model.
     
  6. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Why not five pools of seven, using two strips to double the other five? Did you flight?
     
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  7. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

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    Well, at a large event, there will be pools of 6 and 7, likely single-stripped. Since they needed two referees for two 5-person pools, I'll assume that the 10-person pool was double-stripped.

    A 7-person pool has 21 bouts.
    A 10-person pool has 45 bouts, which is 22 or 23 bouts per strip when double-stripping.

    One could argue that double-stripping a 10-person pool replicates the timing and pace of a national event better than running two 5-person pools. ;)
     
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  8. fencer-dad-of-fencer

    fencer-dad-of-fencer Made the Cut

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    I agree. And in any case, five person pools are no fun. I'm disappointed whenever I get a six instead of a seven.
     
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  9. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    I actually agree. I asked that as well when I saw the pools. I think the answer was that the venue had some issue with time restraints that required us to be cleared out by a certain time...but i could be mis-remembering.
     
  10. mfp

    mfp Podium

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  11. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    That one is mine. as well as any other piratey themed events in the St. Louis division. I have a small school with two strips. If I had had 19, I would have ran 2-6 pools and double stripped the 7. If I had 21 fencers, i would have run two pools of 7 and flighted the third with double stripping. with 20, I flighted two pools of 5 and ran the entire event in about 4 hours. As it is, i have a event limit of 21.

    If i could guarantee larger attendance, I would book a larger space. but the available spaces in my area that can entertain 4+ strips range from $600-1000 per day. As it is, for a small club in a small division, I consider myself fortunate to get 20 for any one event.
     
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  12. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

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    Always good to have a reminder about how different the fencing scene is in different areas. :)

    I live in Durham, NC, and there are 4 main fencing clubs within 35 miles of my house. The smallest one has 4 strips for competition. The largest has 8 full-length strips with plenty of room in between for the referees to work.
     
  13. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Sigh.:rolleyes:
     
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  14. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    Someday... i keep promising myself... someday.
    /goes to buy another lottery ticket
     
  15. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    As a heads up, the following was in the TC report to the Board in St. Louis:

    Now, that's an entry in a report, NOT an action by the Board, but it illustrates where the TC wants the organizational rules to be moving. It may appear in a future Athlete Handbook or Operations Manual. If I were associated with a fencing club that needs to impose a lower limit than 64 for practical reasons, I would likely be reaching out to express my perspective before the decision-making process is completed.

    B
     
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  16. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    From the FRED "More info" on a 2019 tournament:
    If more than 28 fencers register, the tournament will be flighted. All fencers who register after the first 28 will be in the flight that begins Saturday at 1:00, and will have to return on Sunday to fence DE.
     
  17. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    facepalm
     
  18. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    Adding +1 to what others have already said: pools of 5 suck, the organizer who did the pool of 10 should be commended, people who think otherwise don't understand the goal of developmental fencing.
     
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  19. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    I appreciate your enabling transparency:), but I believe this will continue the less-local trend.:(
     
  20. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    So, I emailed about this. Come to find out the athlete handbook states:
    That means that all number capped tournaments are officially unsanctioned. That's unfortunate to know. So the 64 fencer limit IS apparently supposed to address that concern, not further limit organizers. UGH!
     

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