sabre attack scenario 2

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by W. Rafert, Apr 25, 2018.

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Whose touch is it?

  1. Fencer A's

    2 vote(s)
    13.3%
  2. Fencer B's

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%
  3. Both

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Neither

    12 vote(s)
    80.0%
  1. W. Rafert

    W. Rafert Rookie

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    Fencer A is advancing. Fencer B is retreating.

    Fencer A makes an attack and misses. Fencer B makes a counterattack at the same time while still moving backward and also misses.

    Both fencers stop, lunge, and hit without blade contact.

    Whose touch is it?
     
  2. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    Again, no video, nothing really worth talking about. And it depends.

    As written, all that really matters is 'Both stop, lunge, and hit.' Two attacks, two hits, no touch. But I don't think that's actually what we're discussing.

    If A attacks, B counters, both miss, and B immediately finishes his rearward motion and starts forward as A immediately reprises his attack, it's 'Attack No (from A), Attack Yes (from B), touch B.' It would be rare (and generally incorrect) to actually parse the counterattack by B in the reconstruction. This is all based on the current interpretation in US Fencing.

    If A attacks, B counters, both miss, and they both chill, then that phrase is over. If they both now attack, it's simultaneous.

    If A attacks, B counters, both miss, and B chills/continues to retreat, there is an opportunity for A to reprise against whatever B ends up doing.
     
  3. Don Treanor

    Don Treanor Rookie

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    Both stop, lunge and hit. I'm assuming the lunges were simultaneous because you didn't put in the scenario that one came before the other. So the key's from the scenario are both stop, and both lunge.
     
  4. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Attack A no, counter-attack B no.....last action reads simultaneous, but without video it's difficult, as there might be some other action going on.
     
  5. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    Attack from A, counterattack from B, reprise from A has priority over any direct action from B since "B had his turn and now it's back to A's turn" (I put that in quotes since I don't know a more technical way to describe that)
     
  6. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

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    One of the moderators might want to move this thread to the general forum.

    The purpose of the Rules and Refereeing forum was to create a moderated forum that could provide authoritative answers to rules and refereeing questions. An open poll seems to defeat the purpose of the moderated forum since votes in the poll don't go through moderation. For the moderated forum, a normal post with a video of the action would probably be required. The moderator could then approve the response(s) with the correct call. With out video, it's hard to designate a correct call the participants in the discussion may be imagining very different situations.

    Since we just have a text description of the action and a poll, it seems like this thread would work better in the General forum where we can have an open discussion about the things to consider when deciding how to call the various actions that could be described the same way.
     
  7. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

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    This type of touch is going to depend on the timing of the actions, and video is really required if you want a good response.

    The way you've phrased it, it sounds like we have
    • Attack from A. No touch.
    • Counterattack from B. No touch.
    • Simultaneous remises. Neither fencer is awarded a point because the actions are simultaneous.
    But A or B often get the touch in a situation like this. It largely depends on the timing of the actions. I'll assume here that A's remise is with a redoublement since I'm not quite sure how A misses B initially and then hits the remise without some additional forward footwork.

    Fencer A may complain because he may be able to start a redoublement before fencer B has even finished his retreat (or cross-over). In that case, it's still simultaneous as long as fencer B starts a remise without delay once he finishes the retreat or cross-over step that he made with the counterattack.

    Fencer B's error would be in making additional, extraneous retreats so that he is still retreating when fencer A starts the redoublement. Fencer B may also make the error of delaying his action, finishing the retreat (with the counterattack) and not immediately starting a remise. In both of these cases, the final action would be called as remise (or reprise) from A and a new counterattack from B, and fencer A gets the touch. Note that B's remise does not have to be big or fast. It may be very small and initially slow, but he should show that he's immediately starting his action after the counterattack fails.

    Fencer A's error would be in a delay or change of direction after the initial attack. That is, fencer A may finish the attack and pause to observe what his opponent is doing. If fencer A sees that fencer B has finished his retreat but does not notice that fencer B has stopped and started a small step forward (trying to take over the attack), he may decide to redouble his attack, but in this case, A is late. Similarly, if fencer B's counterattack caused fencer A to shift or move back to avoid the counterattack, it may take a moment for fencer A to start forward again. If fencer B has already started his remise, then fencer A may be late. In these scenarios, the final action would probably just be called as attack from fencer B, counterattack from fencer A, and a touch for fencer B.
     
  8. catwood1

    catwood1 is a Verified Fencing Expertcatwood1 Podium

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    As stated, the answer is neither, due to simul.

    In actuality, its usually A's touch, because its pretty rare both fencers stop, then just lunge in that situation. (My vote is consistent with the way this actually usually happens, not the way its described here.)
     

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