sabre attack scenario 1

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by W. Rafert, Apr 25, 2018.

?

Who has right of way?

  1. Fencer A

    6 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Fencer B

    6 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Both

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Neither

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. W. Rafert

    W. Rafert Rookie

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    Here's the situation:

    Fencer A is advancing, fencer B is retreating. The distance is fairly large, enough for the following action:
    Fencer B changes direction and correctly executes an advance and lunge. Fencer A begins his lunge in response after fencer B's lunge starts.
    Both attacks land, no blade contact.

    Who has right of way?
     
  2. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    The ONLY answers that are accurate are:
    Without video, this is a meaningless discussion OR
    It depends.

    The truth is the verbal description is insufficient to determine something like this. If the official is omniscient and is aware that Fencer A begins his lunge in response to Fencer B's lunge, then generally Fencer B has attacked (Fencer A is responding, hence not attacking). That being said, even with that level of omniscience, there is room for wiggle; if Fencer A has begun his final advance before Fencer B begins the advance of his advance lunge, and Fencer A begins to extend before he FINISHES his final advance, Fencer A has met the criteria for attack with advance lunge, at which point his attack began during the advance, not the lunge. So touch A.

    There are scenarios where the marching fencer (A) waits, holds, etc., and the retreating fencer (B) is able to turn the corner and begin an advance lunge correctly before the marching fencer begins the actual attack/finish. But the window is small, and not all officials even credit that there is a window (as the advance lunge discussion is relevant to simple attacks, not compound attacks).

    So, back to the only two real answers; and even with video, it will depend on who's watching.

    Who says quantum mechanics isn't a real thing?
     
  3. Don Treanor

    Don Treanor Rookie

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    "...in response after..."
     
  4. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    Can't say anything for certain without video, since there are a lot of things A could do to not have priority (not threatening valid target, pulling arm back, landing front foot prematurely, etc.) but assuming A's action was clean, I'm guessing most refs will give it attack A has priority over counter attack from B, the argument being that even thorough A's lunge responded to B's lunge, A was already in the process of a compound attack as opposed to a preparation.
     
  5. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

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    One of the moderators might want to move this thread to the general forum.

    The purpose of the Rules and Refereeing forum was to create a moderated forum that could provide authoritative answers to rules and refereeing questions. An open poll seems to defeat the purpose of the moderated forum since votes in the poll don't go through moderation. For the moderated forum, a normal post with a video of the action would probably be required. The moderator could then approve the response(s) with the correct call. With out video, it's hard to designate a correct call the participants in the discussion may be imagining very different situations.

    Since we just have a text description of the action and a poll, it seems like this thread would work better in the General forum where we can have an open discussion about the things to consider when deciding how to call the various actions that could be described the same way.
     
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  6. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

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    So, we're out of the box, right? In that scenario, the context seems to indicate that fencer A is attacking, and fencer B is defending. I don't referee much saber, but in both foil and saber, once we establish a presumed attacker and defender, the attacker generally has to make a fairly big error to lose the right-of-way. Examples of mistakes:
    • Fencer A comes to a complete stop or moves backward, and before fencer A starts forward again, fencer B starts his advance-lunge.
    • Fencer A attempts to find fencer B's blade in his advance lunge, but fencer B deceives the take (i.e., fencer B basically makes a feint-in-time, fencer A tries to parry the counterattack, and there is no blade contact).
    • Fencer A attempts to dodge or avoid fencer B's action when making his final advance-lunge.
    If Fencer A is attacking, then fencer B's game is to make fencer A rush so that B can score an easy stop hit before leaving the space or parrying the final attack, to make fencer A abandon the attack or to finish too short so that B can take over the attack, or to finish to the line that B wants so that B can make an easier parry-riposte. If fencer B panics and makes a counterattack (even with advance lunge), then the attacking fencer (fencer A) should just finish and hit. Attack from A, counterattack from B, touch A.

    It's possible to make a very small advance-lunge from a fairly short distance. It probably helps fencer B's case if he was originally close and trying to find fencer A's blade and then retreated fast enough to open the space before making an advance-lunge with a very early and committed hand. Basically, fencer B is trying to show the referee that fencer A is just stepping forward and not really starting an attack, yet. It's a call that some referees will give in foil, but I don't know whether it's really possible to get that touch in saber. I'd still generally expect fencer A to get the touch unless he makes some other big mistake.
     
  7. catwood1

    catwood1 is a Verified Fencing Expertcatwood1 Podium

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    This is exceptionally hard to describe in words, but I'll give you the short version. If fencer A just sits there and waits so goddamn long without actually doing anything, it can conceivably be B's touch, but its rare in womens sabre, and basically unheard of in mens sabre.

    In reality, its almost always A's touch.
     
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  8. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

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    If this happens exactly as you described, B (because you explicitly say that his lunge is in response to B). If they lunge at the same time, A. It's hard to do a "get-away-go," which is what you're describing. Generally advance-lunge distance is not far enough to do this, so A's march will have priority. It's also possible that B also catches A in preparation.

    Impossible to call without video, since there are too many variable to accurately describe.
     
  9. mtwieg2

    mtwieg2 DE Bracket

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    I've heard of this hypothetical before. The idea is that normally if FotR is advancing and FotL is retreating, FotR will always be entitled to the initial action (assuming no PIL or other shenanigans). But some people insist that if ForL retreats far away enough that they are both completely out of advance-lunge distance, that FotR's advancing no longer matters. In this case, the idea is that FotL could contest the initial action by coming into advance-lunge distance first with their own attack. Basically you treat it as action "in the box."

    It's an interesting and reasonable thought experiment, but I've never seen it play out in real life. FotR always gets their initial action.
     

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