Roughened epee tip legal?

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by DocVic, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. DocVic

    DocVic Rookie

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    My tip is sliding off my opponent's new slippery jacket. Is it legal/advisable to roughen the tip of my epee with a file so it will catch the fabric more easily?
     
  2. posineg

    posineg Made the Cut

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    ummm, I think a file smooths metal and might cause the tip to fail if you take off to much metal or bridge the insulator. If you intentionally make grooves into the tip, that could be a safety issue (Cutting edge) and a potential unsportsmanlike conduct (manipulating equipment to gain advantage).

    Better yet, point control will solve your issue.
     
  3. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    m.19.1.a

    t.43.1.c
     
  4. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    t.64.3 now

    B
     
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  5. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    Since this person was a novice, I did not expect them to be an international fencer or a referee. So I would expect them to go to the 'Official' website or USA Fencing.

    It would be helpful, if the referee commission made sure when they publish something, that is is in agreement with the BOD. I am not sure what would be the decision for any differences. The bylaws state the BOD must maintain the 'Official' web site and publish the rule books, but it is unclear if others can publish 'Official' rule books.

    Since I am not part of the National Office or the referees commission, it would be helpful, if someone pushed to get the US Fencing website updated, before the end of August.

    I for one did not know the new rule book was available and I go on the web site every few days.

    But thank you, I now know.
     
  6. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    In case you're lazy, m19.1.a says:

    Once long ago in the bad old days some epee fencers used to whack at their tips with a knife a time or two to bring up a burr that might catch on a sleeve, but that is of course illegal. Also I'm not sure it ever worked.

    ETA: In case it's not clear, I'm not encouraging anyone to do this. Just hit them in a place that's less parallel to your weapon's line of movement, like the chest. Or face. Or shoe.

    In the rulebook currently on the US Fencing web site there is no t.64.3. I guess I'm looking in the wrong place?
     
  7. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Just put a bit of rosin on it. :p
     
  8. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    If you were a referee, the referee commission probably sent out an e-mail that they have posted the new (August) rule book. http://www.refereescommission.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-08-USA-Fencing-Rules.pdf So far on the 'Official' web site, still has the June rule book. Considering, tomorrow is the last day of August, it would be nice if US Fencing would post the new rule book.
     
  9. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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  10. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

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    Any effort to modify the exterior of the tip other than normal wear and tear may be considered by some as an effort to cheat. That could be grounds for a black card.

    As posineg recommended, improve your point control.
     
  11. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    FWIW, as of today, usafencing.org has the August, 2018 version of the rule book posted. It was posted to the Referees' Commission website earlier this week. The intent is to keep an up-to-date version on both sites at all times; in this case there was a slight lag for the main USA Fencing site.

    t.64 in the August, 2018 version of the USA Fencing Rules is the equivalent of t.43.1.a-f in the June, 2018 (and earlier) USA Fencing Rules. This mirrors the equivalent change made by the FIE after the most recent FIE Congress and was approved for the USA rules by the USA Fencing Board in July. Both the Referees' Commission and USA Fencing websites also host copies of documents listing the new and former rule numbers to help people with the reorganization of the Technical and Organization sections. I imagine something similar will be provided when the Material rules are reorganized (this year's FIE Congress?).

    B
     
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  12. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    Great work, Brad!
     
  13. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Am. Didn't.:(// *Format Drift*: Anybody else find the rules' embedded links no longer active?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  14. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    I tried it and it worked. Here it is again. http://www.refereescommission.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-08-USA-Fencing-Rules.pdf Please try it again.

    As oiuyt says it is on US Fencing website https://cdn4.sportngin.com/attachments/document/31e3-1637422/2018-08-USA-Fencing-Rules.pdf

    Brad, could you also get both websites to remove the penalty charts, until the new ones have been prepared. Having them will only confuse everyone. These point to the old numbering system.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  15. Blackwood

    Blackwood DE Bracket

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    Not as significant, but the Primer for Referees on Medical Issues on the USA Fencing website also refers to the old rule numbers and the old wording of the rule on injuries.
     
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  16. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    During the transition from Omar to me, we lost the internal links. I may be able to restore them at some point, with more time. For now, unfortunately, we have slightly less functionality.

    As far as I know, no email was sent in Association with either the June or August rule books. I imagine the update will be mentioned in both the start-of-season rules blog post and any start-of-season email blast from the RC.

    B
     
  17. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Thank you for your transparency and future commitment.N.B. Sectional events are still referenced.

    One hopes.
     
  18. Stormbringer

    Stormbringer DE Bracket

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    Was this actually a thing? :eek:

    On a related note, the opening post does raise the question of the appropriate way to remove a burr or nick that had developed through normal use (aside from completely replacing the tip) - one would think that a file or some emery paper/cloth would be useful in that instance?

    And, coming back to the opening post, why wouldn't/shouldn't one use the roughest available grade of file or emery paper/cloth for that purpose, since the rougher surface might(?) also make the point more likely to catch on oblique hits and (correct me if I am mistaken) the rules do not have a mandated surface roughness value (e.g. RA/RZ value) for the tip/point?
    For that matter, why wouldn't at least some of the manufactures just make the tips that way & market them as being "better" than "normal" (e.g. less-rough) tips?
     
  19. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    There's a reason Derek Cotton calls epee the "cheaters weapon."
     
  20. Stormbringer

    Stormbringer DE Bracket

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    Though, the same concept also applies to foil, for the same reasons. :p
     

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