Retreat when distance parry

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by CaptPirate, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. CaptPirate

    CaptPirate Rookie

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    Hi everyone, I did a quick search and didn't find one. I am posting it here and will keep browsing. Feel free to remove this if there is duplicated entry.

    I fence Sabre. I have a relatively fast retreat and sometime the momentum is huge that carries me back more than one step after making opponent falls short. Quite some people from the club saying that the convention is that after making opponent falls short, it's okay to retreat one more step due to momentum. But if it's more than one steps, it's considered as losing ROW. When I watch international competition, that doesn't seem obvious to me.

    Can someone please help me understand this?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  2. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    TL;DR version: possibly, yes, if you retreat/pause too much/too long after an attack has ended, your opponent may be able to reprise/redouble and regain ROW before you begin your attack/riposte.

    OK... so some concepts:
    1) There's no such thing (for a referee) as a 'distance parry.' After you make someone fall short, you can't actually riposte, you just make your own attack.
    2) When someone's attack fails (whether due to parry, poor execution, or you retreating out of space and they fall short, or whatever), you have a 'moment' in which you can make your action. The duration of that moment is a matter of convention, perspective, what the two fencers do, and the officials opinion.
    3) When your opponent falls short, you don't have ROW; in fact, when you parry, you don't have ROW. When you begin your attack (or riposte, in the case of the parry), you ~gain~ ROW (ROW really only exists when two actions hit in the same phrase, but whatever, it's a useful concept to talk about having ROW even on one light actions). So if you wait/pause long enough for your opponent to reprise, you didn't ~lose~ ROW, you never had it. If you begin to make an attack, but then search/stop/whatever, you can say you lost ROW.

    Keeping those in mind, generally speaking if you are retreating and your opponent falls short, if you complete the retreat you're making and immediately start your attack (compound or simple), a simple remise/redoublement by your opponent should not be awarded as a touch.

    If your opponent falls short, you take a couple of steps back, and while you're still stepping back your opponent begins a new action, if may well be his/her reprise/redoublement. In my experience, this is more likely to be called if after the attack they are able to maintain balance, stop, and begin again before you 'turn the corner' (due to you taking multiple steps back after the attack has failed). If they simply continue without any break, it requires a bigger mistake and your part (more steps, waiting, searching, whatever) for the reprise to be awarded the touch (in the first case, your opponent has waited, seen your mistake, and is acting into it; in the second, they are just reprising/redoubling without seeing or attempting to capitalize on the mistake, so it's less likely to be called their way).
     
  3. Fourcomp

    Fourcomp Made the Cut

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    You have as long as you need to catch your balance, and even a minutely descent referees in general understand when your regaining your balance , of course you lose your RoW if it's they feel you got your balance and you took an extra step back or if you had a long enough pause when you got your balance.
     
  4. bobb121

    bobb121 Podium

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    Look at the recent FIE Referee Seminar video on the Nazlemov FB Page. If you continue to retreat you give your opponent the opportunity for a reprise.
     
  5. mpego1

    mpego1 Rookie

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    You need to work on your control better when retreating - basically if you keep going backward for longer than a tempo of fencing time (subjective measure in time), ROW is in jeopardy, or in essence if they recover before you do, and then launch another action before you go on offence, they can regain ROW and attack. You need to be in control and ready to strike, when they fall short, just like a parry...when they miss you go, so be ready to riposte immediately. Also remember if someone misses by an inch vs a foot vs 3 feet, it's still just a miss, and merely an opportunity for you to now take the initiative and attack. The closer you are to them after making them miss, the easier it is for you to take the initiative go on attack and land before they can recover and attempt to parry or remise. Controlling that space and separation to your advantage is a large part of the art of fencing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  6. W. Rafert

    W. Rafert Rookie

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    Right of way only exists on the last action before a touch is scored. Basically, if no one is attacking, there is no right of way. In the situation you're describing, the first person to begin an attack (with the arm, not just moving forward) will have right of way. You should work on more controlled footwork to prevent yourself from giving your opponent an opportunity, however.
     
  7. catwood1

    catwood1 is a Verified Fencing Expertcatwood1 Podium

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    Holy hell is this wrong.

    Can we require some level of competence before letting people post answers in the rules section?

    You have a pretty long time. If you wait for-goddamn-ever, AND they go immediately, MAYBE its theirs. Probably not. Attack no attack if in doubt.
     
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  8. ilyazhito

    ilyazhito Rookie

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    It seems to me that your retreats make your opponents' initial attack fail. Once that attack fails, no one has ROW. However, if your retreats are long enough that referees does not think that you are trying to attack, and your opponents renew/continue their failed attacks, then the renewal/continuation will have higher priority over any action you might initiate. If you want to not have your status as an attacker in doubt, either work to establish Point in Line quickly (advancing or retreating is irrelevant when it comes to Point in Line), or make it clearer that you are attacking. That way, you will be able to receive more points, because the referees will understand your intentions better.
     
  9. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    Whoa there, buddy. Good manners goes a long way in teaching.

    And you might want to check out the videos on the Nazlymov fencing blog and see if that fits your perception of how this action is called.
     
  10. catwood1

    catwood1 is a Verified Fencing Expertcatwood1 Podium

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    Sure, but when something is wrong, you can say "this is wrong." What I quoted was very wrong, and actively destructive when people are trying to understand modern international sabre fencing. ESPECIALLY the idea that the arm has basically anything the do with the described situation.*

    *Barring edge cases.
     

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