Red card or not?

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by Mia Malverick, May 7, 2019.

  1. Mia Malverick

    Mia Malverick Rookie

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    I was at a competition yesterday and got a red card before the match even begun because one of my wires wasn't working. I changed it right away in less than a minute but the referee gave a point to my opponent and when I asked why he said that my equipment wasn't working and that I got a red card for it. Is that by the rules because that never happened to me before?
     
  2. garyhayenga

    garyhayenga DE Bracket

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    The first instance of equipment not working before a you use it in a bout should be a yellow card. Only if you already have a yellow card should equipment not working get you a red card, and a penalty point for your opponent.
     
  3. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

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    Did you have a spare body cord at the strip, or did you have to disconnect to go and get one?
     
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  4. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

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    The point is that
    1. If equipment is found not to work in the middle of a bout, there is no penalty since the fault could have been caused by something that happened after the bout started. Switch to your spare weapon or body cord, as appropriate. Continue the bout.
    2. If you present to strip with equipment not working, then it's a Group 1 penalty. Yellow card. Switch to your spare weapon or body cord. (That's why you see epee fencers checking their tip screws before/after every bout. If a tip screw falls out during a bout, no problem. But if they present the same weapon at the start of the next bout, they will start that bout with a yellow card.)
    3. You're supposed to come to strip with a spare weapon, spare body cord, and spare mask cord. In either case 1 or case 2, above, if you don't have a spare weapon or body cord "at strip," it's also a Group 1 penalty.
    If you're in case 2 + case 3, then you will get a yellow card for a failing cord, for example. Then, when the referee discovers that you don't have a spare body cord, you can get a second Group 1 penalty (a red card) for that or for the delay of bout while you try to find one from a teammate.

    There was an earlier thread about whether the referee should penalize the fencer if the fencers has spares, but they're not "at the strip." To be safe, I generally ask the referee when I check in, such as, "I have my spare weapon and body cords over by that chair, is that OK?" In most cases, the referee will want your spares close enough that you won't have to disconnect from the reel to get them.
     
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  5. Mia Malverick

    Mia Malverick Rookie

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    I had a spare
     
  6. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Were you Yellow-carded for something else?
     
  7. Mia Malverick

    Mia Malverick Rookie

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    Nope
     
  8. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    You may appeal a misapplication or misunderstanding of a rule.
     
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  9. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    I have seen worse? At a World University Games. A fencer started with 2 red cards before the bout started. The Foils were tested and one fencer's Foil failed the weight test. They grab their 2nd weapon and it passed. The other team protested that the fencer did not have a 2nd regulation weapon. Red Card! The first team protested, the referee gave a 2nd Red card since this was an unjustified protest since they did not have a 2nd (3rd) regulation weapon. The 1st was not regulation since it didn't pass.
     
  10. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Technically correct but have not seen or heard of it widely enforced so. Gav, ouiyt or downunder?
     
  11. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    True, they did not go to the DT, but at this WUG there was a definite French bias. During the individual competition between these 2 teams, a brawl happened. The referee calmly held up 2 black cards. There was a protest and the competition was held up for over a half hour. The referee, who happened to be the highest rated Foil referee there, came out apologized held up a black card for one fencer and held up a red card for the French fencer. Another incident happened, most of the Epee's did not pass flexibility, too stiff, even with 2 weights. One French fencer took issue with that after having flexed it a number of times and not passing. They slammed down the weapon onto the hand of one of our Armorers. The DT did everything to make sure nothing would happen to penalize the French.

    If this had been any other team there, it is my feeling it would have not been enforced.
     
  12. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Upon further consideration: Equipment Control-checked weapons bag available at strip as for World Cups, etc.? Failed blade Yellow-card, presented second conforming, other conformings in the bag. Rule misapplication/misunderstanding justified protest.
     
  13. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    That is your opinion. At that time I would agree with you, but today no. Look at t.117. I don't have my old rulebooks with me right now, so I don't know if that rule was in place then.

    The point I am trying to make is the rules are so vague, that you can fail anything. Look at the FIE banning of non-2-prong body cords. They used m.5.3.e & f to justify that. The Armorers at WUG used the rules to fail every bit of equipment submitted by a French squad. Example if the tape on the Foil is 14.9 cm or 15.1 cm is it legal?
     
  14. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    In this case, Donald's incident pre-dates the call-room protocol currently in use at World Cups/GPs/World Champs. Part of the reason the call-room pre-check of equipment prior to DEs was introduced was to eliminate the bouts being delayed due to non-conforming equipment or lack of spares. When the call room is used, the referee doesn't do a weight test on strip, since everything in the strip-side bag has already been checked and is known-good.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  15. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Our SOP is to strip-check only one weapon at bout's start, presuming the second is conforming - otherwise we'd check two.
     
  16. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    That is probably the SOP for most everyone, including me. But what happens when the first one fails and does not satisfy the regulations and are not in perfect working order? t.117 would apply. So fencer beware, check your equipment before every bout and have more than the minimum.

    I am at home and have checked my old rulebooks and the rule was in place then, but it was numbered 604.
     

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