Recording Cards

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by TheBeluga, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. TheBeluga

    TheBeluga Rookie

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    Does a referee have to record down that a fencer was given lets say a red card so that its valid?
     
  2. Emerald101

    Emerald101 Rookie

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    Yes. The most likely application is after a red card is awarded for second group one infraction. If the fencer appeals and the first card was not recorded on the scoresheet (or the box), then it isn't valid and the second card is treated as if there were no first card, which is to say that it becomes a yellow card.
     
  3. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

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    Yes. See t.114.4. Note that a referee may be using a temporary "scratch score sheet" during a bout, for convenience, and recording the card there still counts.
     
  4. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Yes...otherwise a fencer can contest it...it needs to be documented.
     
  5. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

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    t.114
    4.
    All warnings (Yellow Cards), penalty touches (Red Cards) and exclusions (Black Cards) must be noted on the scoresheet of the bout, the pool or the match, together with the group to which they belong.

    In practice, this type of thing comes up when it's a long match or a match with long delays for faulty equipment or something. Late in the bout, one of the fencers receives a Group I penalty. When the fencers start arguing about whether it should be a red card because the fencer did/didn't already have a penalty in that bout, you'll really want a written record of all penalties. :)

    FYI - I just searched the rulebook for scoresheet. There were only about a dozen matches.
     
  6. Arslan

    Arslan Rookie

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    Yes , Referee should keep it...I thought it might be interesting to see what had happened record a referee during a game.
     
  7. TheBeluga

    TheBeluga Rookie

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    Thank you all
     
  8. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    For a Black Card, record the time, as well as what was said and done by everyone. You'll need this to complete the post-bout report.
     
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  9. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    Don't record anything on the scoresheet other than the name of the individual who was black-carded and perhaps the time. Use a separate sheet of paper to make any additional notes (like names of witnesses, specifics of what was said and done, and what you did in response), because you don't want those raw notes to become part of the official record (which they would if they're on the scoresheet).

    Then, after the individual who got the black card is removed and you have taken some time to gather yourself, and after you've had any necessary discussions with other referees or with the head referee and BC, you can fill out the black card report based on the notes you wrote on that separate sheet. You have to make sure your account of the incident is clear and accurate, and it includes only the information necessary for higher authorities to decide on any subsequent action. Don't be afraid to have another ref help you with completing the report, especially if it's the first time you've had to show a black card. It can be scary.

    Keep your notes after you complete the black card form so you can keep your story straight if you get contacted by USFA or other authorities after you submit the report.
     
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  10. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    Are you stating Ref Commission guidance? Contemporaneous notes are the best official record (lawyers please chime in), which I've used to complete subsequent reports. In the one instance when a report wasn't immediately requested, I obtained a copy of my annotated score sheet to accurately report.
     
  11. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    No. I'm not aware of any guidance from RC or USFA (see my previous gripe^H^H^H^H comments about training curricula) I'm going from USA Hockey educational materials, and my experience dealing with ejections in both hockey and fencing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  12. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    Sure, you want to record those notes while your recollection of the incident is fresh (and that's why I recommend holding on to those notes after the black card report is filed), but what you write down in the heat of the moment might not be what you want on a formal report. You might want to revise your statement after speaking to fellow refs or other witnesses, you probably won't write down everything in the order it happened, and you probably want to translate the quickly-written notes into more formal language needed for an incident report.
     
  13. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    Now, here's a clip from the USA Hockey intermediate officials' manual on completing game reports. Note that we use these for a variety of matters, not just situations where we eject a player or coach (I submitted one last season to explain a penalty time screw-up caused by the scorekeepers' failure to record the penalties properly, with the intent that District would ream out^H^H^H^H^H^H speak to the managers of the home club about training their scorekeepers).

    Filling Out The Game Report
    Several situations, or even governing bodies, may require the officials to submit a game report following the game. This is especially important when an infraction is called which calls for the suspension of a player or coach. The official game report will serve as the official’s version of the incidents occurring on the ice. Online game reporting systems are now used in most areas and can be completed immediately following the game while sitting in the officials’ dressing room. Use the following guidelines when completing the game report.

    • Collect necessary information from the game while you are still at the rink including partner information, teams, penalties assessed and other data pertinent to the reporting process.
    • Discuss the incident with your partner(s) and confirm their version of what occurred. If they did not see the incident or have a different version of the incident, include that in the reporting process.
    • Complete the required fields accurately and completely. Don’t guess. If you’re not sure what the correct answer [ed--this refers to citing specific rule references] it look it up using the tools available.
    • Be accurate and thorough in your description of the incident. Be specific as to players involved and what actions were taken. Avoid any opinions or editorial comments. [ed--this is an important point that is reiterated to us in training camp each season] Only state the incident as you saw it and the thought process that took place to arrive at the penalty(s) that were assessed.
    • Review the game report prior to final submission. Save the online version and come back to it a few hours later to review and edit as necessary to provide the most complete and accurate information possible. When confident the report is complete and accurate, follow the submission process and forward to any other personnel that require a copy. If possible, attach and [sic] electronic version of the scoresheet to the report.
    • When a more serious infraction occurs (i.e. match penalty), contact your Local Supervisor as soon as possible to provide them with the basic details of the incident so they can follow up with the appropriate people. Be prepared to provide additional information as needed and answer any questions that may be asked of the incident honestly and accurately.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  14. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    I am.
    Heat of the moment writings? Absolutely! Revise after-the-fact? Better not or lose credibility. Formal-language reporting ? Absolutely.
     
  15. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    Which is why you shouldn't use the scoresheet.
    Another reason to write just the minimum necessary information (that a black card was shown: to whom and when) on the scoresheet. Otherwise, what's written on the sheet becomes part of the official record and may end up conflicting with subsequent statements by the referee or by witnesses.
    Few of us can write a good incident report on first draft right at the time of the incident, and I don't think any of us can do so every time. Often, there may be context that you only get from talking to a witness or after stopping and thinking about the incident. And writing down notes is part of that thinking process.
    And that takes time: it isn't something you can do between the time you show the card and the time you call the next bout.
    One more reason (and this is something I might touch on if and when I get around to writing examples of good and bad incident reports) is that sometimes the subsequent actions of the penalized person or others around them might affect how you frame your description of the incident in your report.
     

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