RC Rules Bog Post - Appeals

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by swordwench, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:45 AM.

  1. swordwench

    swordwench is a Verified Fencing Expertswordwench Podium

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  2. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Swordwench: Shouldn't this be in Rules & Referee Questions?

    Jdude97: Don't understand your "like". "the application of the unjustified appeal penalty is at the discretion of the Head Referee–not the referee on the piste. In some rare cases, the Head Referee may determine that a protest was valid (not a question of fact nor spurious or frivolous), even if the Head Referee denies the appeal. In this case, the Head Referee may choose not to apply the penalty." Undermines the strip ref. Black Cards have been overturned resulting in a chilling effect. Why delay your bout to summon the Head Ref, if you're not sure they'll back you?
     
  3. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    Doesn't seem like swordwench is asking a question to me. Report it to the mods if you think it should be moved.

    And now people are being called out for liking posts. I don't get it.
     
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  4. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Your quote from the RC rules blog post followed by your mention of black cards seems to indicate you didn't understand the bit you quoted.
     
  5. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    Let me take a stab at it: Mac thinks that because some head refs or tournament directors fail to back up their refs when they show a black card, which gives the impression that some [fencers | coaches] are so important that they're allowed to flaunt the rules, head refs shouldn't be allowed to waive the penalty for an unjustified appeal.

    Used right though, the rule should prevent black cards. Case in point from an RJCC I refereed: 8 seconds to go in the third period of an epee DE, fencer on the left is ahead (I forget the score). Fencer on the right attacks, left retreats, corps a corps at the end of the strip, I call "halt" but because I'm down at the end of the strip and remotes always give you trouble at the most inopportune times, the clock doesn't stop. Time expires, but I say "three seconds!" because I looked at the clock as soon as I called the halt. Left coach jumps up and says "clock says zero--the bout is over." I explain that in the event of a clock malfunction, the referee has to estimate the proper time. Coach argues some more, sees I'm not going to change the call, and says "get bout committee." Someone has seen this meanwhile, and has alerted the head ref. She comes over, tells the coach I have properly applied the rule, and I put three seconds on the clock and finish the bout. Now if there hadn't been an appeal process, the coach may have blown up during the initial dispute or after the bout if his fencer had lost, and I would have shown a black card. Having the head ref come over and verify the interpretation defused the situation.
     
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  6. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    The bit he quoted was about cases where the head ref denied the fencers appeal -- i.e. agreed with the ref's call -- but the head ref decided not to apply an unjustified appeal penalty. So if the ref's call included a card, the card stands.

    The excerpt that was quoted serves to explain that not all fencers appeals that are denied are unjustified and that it's the head ref who decides whether an appeal is or isn't justified in addition to judging the actual matter being appealed by the fencer.

    Quoting that excerpt then complaining about black cards not being upheld seems to indicate a misunderstanding of the point of the section being quoted. The penalty not being applied by the head ref is the unjustified appeal penalty, not for instance, a yellow, red, black card penalty call the ref made and a fencer is appealing.

    The last sentence in the quote from the blog was:

    In this case, the Head Referee may choose not to apply the penalty.
    Two extra words might help clear things up:

    In this case, the Head Referee may choose not to apply the unjustified appeal penalty.

     
  7. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    I don't see that giving the HR discretion on applying the unjustified appeal penalty is in any way "undermining the ref", any more than appellate courts are "undermining" trial judges.

    In any case this penalty is only a yellow card, so it's not as though it is likely to affect the outcome of the bout.

    Now, actually finding that the ref had misapplied a rule and reversing his call...THAT would be "undermining the ref". Should we not ever do that, then? Should we not allow appeal of a referee's call on any grounds? Should we always and only let the ref have the final say on everything, so that we are not "undermining" him?
     
  8. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    That's what I read it as too. Personally, I'm OK with such a waiver if the situation is ambiguous about whether the appeal was on a matter of fact or a matter of rules interpretation or if the fencer or coach is relatively inexperienced and might not know the nuances of the rules. After all, that's an interpretation question: who determines the time remaining when there's a clock failure.
    Right. That ought not affect any other penalties such as a yellow for entering the strip enclosure without permission, and a good head ref ought not overrule them regardless of how important the fencer or coach is..
     
  9. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Actually, it's not an interpretation question. t.44 (3)
     
  10. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Tied almost-final score, i.e. 4-4 or 14-14. Appealing fencer has Yellow Card. Unjustified Appeal against appealing fencer = Red Card. Bout.
     
  11. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    Whether or not the referee has the authority to set the time if the clock has already run out is the interpretation question. The referee's estimate of how much time is left is final and not appealable.
     
  12. swordwench

    swordwench is a Verified Fencing Expertswordwench Podium

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    Yeah... as suggested above, I didn't have a question. And most people don't lurk around in the rules and ref area, because we are kind of boring over there. I just wanted to alert the masses that Devin had a new blog post, which doesn't just impact referees - it impacts everyone.

    While I'm here, the fact is that the head ref has always been able to both uphold a referee's decision on an appeal *and* choose to not card for it. I had it happen years ago at a NAC in Portland, and I've seen it happen since. Maybe because it was Day 4 and everyone was tired, maybe because although I was technically right, the fencer had a decent defense - but no card was given, and no one harbored any hard feelings. The rule just states in more clearly now. I certainly didn't intend for anyone to go down a rat hole about what happens with black cards not being upheld by the folks on the platform. Everybody calm down.
     
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  13. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Sigh. Incorrect on the "not appealable" part.

    Pretty sure the point of the RC rules blog post on the right of appeal is that anything is appealable by a fencer and that would include this.

    Depending on the circumstances, the fencer's appeal may or may not be successful and may also result in an unjustified appeal penalty, but those are matters for the head ref to decide.
     
  14. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    One can always concoct an exceptional scenario ( I do it all the time ). I maintain however that it is still unlikely.

    I have made a whole two appeals in my multi-decades fencing career. One was ruled for me, on the other the ref's call was upheld but no penalty was levied. As Swordwench said this is how it has always been done, there were no hard feelings ( at least on my part ) and it was fine...even though I continue to think that I was right. Of course. :)
     

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