Question about how pool are formed

Discussion in 'Parent's Corner' started by MarylandFencingMom, Mar 23, 2015.

  1. MarylandFencingMom

    MarylandFencingMom Rookie

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    Now that my son has been in a few tournaments, I've been wondering how pools are formed. Are fencers assigned randomly to pools? How does this work in a USFA Y10 tournament? Thanks!
     
  2. fencer-dad-of-fencer

    fencer-dad-of-fencer Made the Cut

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    Fencers are ordered by rating/year and possibly by national points (depending on the tournament) and then randomly within groups (so all D2014 fencers are arranged randomly.) They are then divided into pools as equally as possible. The method used is to allocate the fencers back and forth in a snakelike fashion among the pools. Since this isn't exactly obvious, let me give you an example

    Pretend you have 10 fencers to allocate into three pools (not realistic, but I don't want to type a lot.)

    Say you have 2 D2015, 2 D2014, 2 E2014, and 4 U fencers, so they will be seeded in that order.

    You put the a random D2015 in the first pool. You put the other in the second pool. You put a random D2014 in the third pool. Now you start backward. You put the other D2014 in the third pool, a random E2014 in the second pool, and the other E2014 in the first pool. Now you go forward again, put a random U in the first pool, another in the second, and another in the third. You have one left, and that one goes in the third pool, as you start backward again. The idea is to make the pools as similar in strength as possible. In this case, you would get:

    Pool1: D2015, E2014, U
    Pool2: D2015,E2014, U
    Pool3 D2014,D2014,U,U

    Since Y10 fencers are mostly U's, Y10 seeding will mostly be random. Also, fencers will be moved between pools to minimize the number of pools with fencers from the same club. Pools of six or seven are generally preferred, but if you don't have at least 30 fencers you may not be able to avoid pools of other sizes.

    Hope this makes sense.
     
  3. NipperDad

    NipperDad Made the Cut

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    To follow FDoF above, note that the randomization is done in the seeding, which in turn drives the creation of the pools. Using seeding numbers, his pools would contain

    Pool 1: seeds 1, 6 and 7
    Pool 2: 2, 5 and 8
    Pool 3: 3, 4, 9 and 10

    This means that you can look at the posted seeding and get a good idea of who will be in your pool of interest (barring club conflicts).

    As FDoF said, Y10 events usually don't have a lot of rated fencers, even in an area with a good number of ranked fencers. If seeding is by rating only, it's pretty easy to end up with unbalanced pools. Not much fun if you're a new fencer and you end up in a pool with multiple ranked kids who would otherwise have been spread out into different pools.
     
  4. fdad

    fdad Podium

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    I am not certain of the specific algorithm used, but I believe that if there are more fencers in one pool than in others, the extra is added to the pool with the higher seed. So, I think it would be:
    Pool 1: seeds 1, 6, 7, and 10
    Pool 2: 2, 5 and 8
    Pool 3: 3, 4, and 9
     
  5. NipperDad

    NipperDad Made the Cut

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    Thanks, fdad. As I was writing it down it seemed wrong - the smaller pools always have the higher number. And per the Operations Manual

    Interestingly (for a pretty narrow definition of "interestingly"), after a cursory search, I couldn't find anything in the OM, rule book or AH that specified pools are to be populated snakewise. The closest I could find was in AH Appendix 2.10.1

    Obviously snakewise is the standard, but there might not be an actual rule implementing it. Maybe there's an FIE OM equivalent that lays it out.
     
  6. MarylandFencingMom

    MarylandFencingMom Rookie

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    Thanks for the explanation everyone. All of these fencers are U's so I was wondering if there was something more than just randomization going on.
     
  7. fdad

    fdad Podium

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    You should probably read the Athletes Handbook, Section 2.10 Competition Seeding & Formats. According to it, for Y10 Local Events they are supposed to use "National Youth10 Rolling Points, then classification/year" to initially seed.
     
  8. NipperDad

    NipperDad Made the Cut

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    Make sure you read the most recent one, though. At least as of the September, 2014 version, Table 2.10.1.1 still said "National Youth 10 ranking within classification, then classification/year or classification and year only."

    Here's where I'm a little confused. Table 2.10.1.1 gives seeding principles for Y10/12/14 NACs, championships, RYCs and SYCs, but doesn't explicitly say anything about other competitions (except for including the word "local" in the second column header. In earlier editions of the Operations Manual, it says that "In Division and Regional competitions, seeding can use the national rolling point standings within each classification, or it can use just the classification, letter and year, for seeding." Since the current OM is available only as Word file, I can't read it. Does anybody know if the OM still allows classification-only seeding for local events?

    (And even if it does, if any of you are running a youth event with more than a couple of ranked fencers, please take the time to use points for seeding. It really is better that way.)
     
  9. AliRaza08

    AliRaza08 Rookie

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    In earlier editions of the Operations Manual, it says that "In Division and Regional competitions, seeding can use the national rolling point standings within each classification, or it can use just the classification, letter and year, for seeding." Since the current OM is available only as Word file, I can't read it. Does anybody know if the OM still allows classification-only seeding for local events?






    ...........................
    Kashmiri Butt
     
  10. Blackwood

    Blackwood DE Bracket

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    I just downloaded what appears to be the latest Operations Manual (dated 29 Jan 2015) from the usfencing.org website, and it is in PDF form (although, confusingly, if I click to display it rather than right-click to download it, the header for the web browser tab says Microsoft Word - Operations Manual). In any case, 7.3 still contains the exact language that you quoted, except that the comma before "or it can use just the classification....." is omitted.




    ...........................
    Kashmiri Butt[/QUOTE]
     
  11. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    Most use a computer now and let it decide. To answer fully would take a lot more time than I have now, but let us give a simplified version. This uses cards which has name, club, and ranking of each fencer. Have a list of clubs and the number of fencers in them. This will help later.

    First, decide how many pools you need. Let us make it 32. By the rules, they should be each 6 or 7, but US Fencing does allow other sizes. So let us have 5 pools, 2 of 7 and 3 of 6. If because of space you only have 4 piste available you would probably do 4 pools of 8, but let us go with the former.

    Second, put the fencers in order by ranking. If there are ties, which there will be, randomize those.

    Third, start creating the pools using the 'Snake' method. How this is done is start with the highest and put down across the first 5 cards from left to right. Then under that row, put another row going this time from right to left. The next row, from left to right, etc, until all cards are down.

    Fourth, now comes the 'Fun' part of having to make sure it is fair and equitable. Look at each pool and see if there are too many teammates together. That is where the list above comes in handy. If there is 5 in a club, every pool should have that club, if 6, then 1 and only 1 pool would have 2, etc. If you find there are too many teammates in a pool, find a pool that has too few and switch the bottom teammate, keeping in mind to switch with someone that is the same ranking (or as close as you can get) and does not move a teammate from another club in that would cause a conflict of too many teammates.

    This can be done quickly with experience. For many years, LBI did it without computers and had well over 100 fencers in an event. What would be good is for you to volunteer at a tournament. Take the list of fencers and do what is above and compare it with the actual pools.

    In some of the older rulebooks, they do talk about how to set up pools, but I am away right now. Contact me and I will try and take an excerpt from them.
     
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  12. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

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    You realize you're replying to a spam post?
     
  13. Quinn

    Quinn Made the Cut

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    I found the post to be very helpful and I'm not even the OP :)
     
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  14. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    An infinite number of spambots posting to an infinite number of fora will eventually produce a useful and relevant thread.
     
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  15. Blackwood

    Blackwood DE Bracket

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    In this case, the spambot only posted spam, but it did bump the post and prompt DHCJr to add a more detailed answer than the existing omes.
     
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  16. Privateer

    Privateer Podium

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    it was the best of times, it was the blurst of times.
     
  17. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    At what point do we concede that spammers are better at the task than AI researchers and the Turing Test has been passed?

    B
     
  18. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    Thank you for bringing this back up to the forefront. Many do not keep up with the changes made by the FIE, but they do indicate where US Fencing will be going. The changes proposed for the rulebook are massive. They are planning on completely revising the Technical and Organizational rules. First by moving some between the two and renumbering them.

    One of the proposal, speaks directly to the thread. As NipperDad stated there seems to be no rule to the snake we all use. This is in a proposal by the Executive Committee, but it does not answer what Fdad pointed out. The FIE only deals with even pools.

    All the can be found in Informational Letter #14 http://fie.org/fie/documents/letters/15 The funny thing about this and other proposals is this is proposing to modify o.13, but if the restructure happens then o.13 will have nothing to do with forming pools, so this will actually change o.68. Omar is going to have so much 'Fun' with these rule changes.
     
  19. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    FIE President's later November 20 letter is still before Nov 25 Congress. Outcome?
     
  20. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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