PointControl: a new fencing rating system

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by David Ma, Sep 15, 2015.

  1. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    I guess my response to that is "Good for you," and not in a sarcastic way. At least in my region of the Greater Chicago Area, it sounds like there's been an overall failure to follow the AH (this is not the only instance though in which proper USFA rules were disregarded in running local events, granted).

    I realize it may have sounded like I was arguing against you saying that events seeded based on the NRPS exist, but it's just when someone has 6+ years of experience around the fencing in, organizing, and running of tournaments, and someone tells them a pretty major rule they've never heard of, they're bound to be suspicious and in disbelief. That's how I am. Imagine if someone after 6 years was told that DEs were seeded based on win% and not just on indicator after having always believed the latter - it'd be a bit of a shock and not sound real.

    As a by the way though to teacup, local, divisional, and regional veteran tournaments seed only by classification and year, not by national points, so you would've been in error if you meant what you said about seeding "every tournament, youth to senior to veteran" using NRPS.
     
  2. teacup

    teacup Podium

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    Corrected post
     
  3. fencing parent

    fencing parent Made the Cut

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    Here's one (copied and pasted from askFred's results):

    Seeding: NJFA Youth Cup #3 (Y8-Y14) 11/23/ 2014

    Y14 Women's Saber
    Seeding before Round #1 - Pools

    Seed Rating Competitor Club
    1 D2014 White, Amber NJFA
    2 D2014 Parker, Abigale AFFA
    3 U Li, Selene NJFA
    4 E2013 Schnall, Maya NJFA
    5 U Lada, Samantha COBRA FC
    6 U Atanacio, Ava ATLANTIC
    7 U Zhang, Audrey INFINITY
    8 U Wolfire, Amelia CAPITAL

    I haven't cross-checked with the Y14WS NRPS list that would have been in effect at that time, but based on a U being seeded ahead of an E, it appears another system (presumably NRPS) was used.
     
  4. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    It may be an incorrect representation though to say that most tournaments follow the rules because the people who are on FdN are probably more likely to be the people who follow the rules and the people who follows the rules are more likely to be on FdN. It's the people who have no clue about the rules or else choose/decide to ignore the rules for whatever reason who aren't on FdN and who are the ones violating the NRPS.

    But then my question is why divisions, and more importantly, the USFA, allows them to get away with this.

    I will still note though that even using the NRPS to seed local competitions doesn't fix much of anything if few if any entrants in that competition have NRPS, and doesn't fix a thing if those fencers don't compete at NRPS-awarding tournaments.
     
  5. NipperDad

    NipperDad Made the Cut

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    Not always, but some Bay Cup hosts use NRPS for seeding.

    They don't want to bother with importing the relevant NRPS to FencingTime or manually reviewing the fencers against the list. A Y12MF Bay Cup event might have 50 entries with 5-10 on the NRPS. Who's got time for that?
     
  6. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    People who want to follow the rules associated with sanctioning USFA tournaments?

    As we discussed in the 800N saber glove requirement thread, divisions and tournament organizers do not have the authority to alter the AH or any other USFA rule. Tournament organizers can't pick and choose which rules they use in their tournaments if they want USFA sanctioning.

    You don't have the time? Then don't host a USFA event.

    In fact, many youth events aren't USFA sanctioned because it's highly unlikely that a youth event would meet the requirements for awarding classifications, so it's not worth the hassle of USFA sanctioning if there's not the benefit of awarding classifications. But that's its own issue.
     
  7. Blackwood

    Blackwood DE Bracket

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    Where I am (Georgia Division) there are almost no events (except for qualifiers for championships and regional events) that are not mixed. That means there is no national points list that can be used for seeding.
     
  8. bbower

    bbower DE Bracket

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    Sorry, I'm usually good at detecting sarcasm. Was your post sarcastic?
     
  9. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    Someone already stated previously that in the case of mixed events, the respective male and female NRPS are used, such that a #8 girl would be above a #10 boy. But that was my question too about how to seed mixed events in accordance to the AH's directives since the AH does not state what to do in the case of mixed events with regards to seeding that I'm aware of nor are there mixed NRPS.
     
  10. NipperDad

    NipperDad Made the Cut

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    I bugs me to no end when people don't use NRPS for events. We'd end up with a pool with 3-4 NRPS kids, which doesn't really enhance anybody's experience. I don't necessarily have a ton of sympathy when that happens in a senior event, but I think it's reasonable for organizers to try to maximize what kids can get out of an event, and more-balanced pools are better.

    That said, per the 2014 AH, classification/year was acceptable for local youth events (e.g., "National Youth 12 ranking within classification, then classification/year or classification and year only"), so they weren't breaking any rule, just being lazy.
     
  11. Gav

    Gav is a Verified Fencing ExpertGav Moderator!!

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    What's NRPS? National Ranking Points System?
     
  12. rudd

    rudd Podium

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    National Rolling Point Standings.

    http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0036/9712/2014-2015_Athlete_Handbook_2015_3_31.pdf Chapter 3 onwards has the gory detail.
     
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  13. Gav

    Gav is a Verified Fencing ExpertGav Moderator!!

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    Thanks.

    I think ....
     
  14. fencing parent

    fencing parent Made the Cut

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    That may explain jdude97's experience with seeding in local youth events. I see that alternate option in my copy of the 2013/2014 AH. I never actually looked at that rule in 2013/2014.

    That alternate option was removed from the 2014/2015 AH. The earliest version I have is the 10/22/14 edition (which was the 11th [yes, eleventh!] edition last season). The change to local youth seeding is not listed in the post-8/1/14 revisions list at the front, so presumably this change in policy was in the original 2014/2015 AH (although I'm not certain the revision list is all-inclusive).

    I don't recall receiving any communication about this rule change (which doesn't mean I didn't, but...). So, if the local youth tournament organizers who had been using the "classification and year only" option were unaware of the rule change, that would explain why they continued that practice throughout last year. It also highlights the need for better communication about rule changes and the need for a system to monitor/check proper observance of rules at events purporting to be run in accordance with the USFA rules.
     
  15. NipperDad

    NipperDad Made the Cut

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    I took that from the 9/17/2014 edition of the AH, which is the last copy I have for that season. I don't know when it changed or who drove and approved it - YDC? TC? ED? BoD? That said, I'm all for it.

    I'd also like more flexibility about using alternative points lists where possible, at least for youth events, where there often isn't sufficient information for good seeding. An RYC should be able to use, say NRPS then rating then RPS. Similarly, designated local circuits like the Bay Cup should be allowed to use NRPS then rating then Bay Cup standings. If we have information that allows better seeding, we might as well use it.

    (Of course, as discussed in a couple other threads, seeding can be totally mooted by the BC, as there are no rules governing the construction of pools other than higher seeds get bigger pools and maybe club conflict minimization. An organizer can hand craft pools to be whatever they like subject to only some very light constraints, although that might not be ideal for repeat business.)
     
  16. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    Executive Summary: US Fencing essentially has two parallel ranking systems. The National Rolling Points Standards are based on performance in National Tournaments, ROCs, RYCs, and (for Cadet, Junior, and Senior) international events. It's what's used for the really "important" stuff like international team selections, etc.

    The letter/year classification system is intended mainly to provide a "quick-n-rough" initial seeding for fencers who aren't on the rolling points list for a category (which would be most of them, especially at local events). It was intended to be an simple-to-administer system back in the decades when the internet wasn't everywhere and local tournament organizers didn't have easy access to up-to-the-minute point standings (both for reading them and updating them) and the National Office was even smaller than it is today and would not have had the capacity to continuously update standings from local tournaments around the country.
     
  17. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    This isn't exactly correct. NRPS are just that: national. They only include points earned at national-level tournaments (NACs, July Challenge, Championships) plus international tournaments as applicable (designated events, World Cups, Grand Prix, World Championships, Olympics). The only exception is that SYCs, which are essentially regional but are treated as national, count towards the youth NRPS. But ROCs and RYCs, plus RJCCs which you didn't mention, are regional in name, and as such, only award regional points (at least as this time). So in addition to the NRPS, there is also a regional points standing, which is computed and accessed separately. However, afaik, the regional points standing is only used for qualification purposes and not seeding at any events.
     
  18. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    If we have these National and Regional point lists laying around, why not expand them to regular fencers at regular events and replace the current system? It's already in place.
     
  19. fdad

    fdad Podium

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    AFAIK, the NO hasn't automated the maintenance of the NRPS. It takes a long time in between manual updates for the limited number of events. Also, having an unlimited number of events potentially impact the NRPS is a bad idea. Knowing which events will give how many points well ahead of time is very important to the integrity of the current system. The potential for a highly ranked group to get together unannounced, causing an local event to generate a large number of points, could impact who makes the national team.
     
  20. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    There's also the issue of multiple NRPS. Senior, Junior, Veteran. As with the current letter ratings, there may be large differences between someone with, say, 1000 points on the Senior list and those on the Veterans list. How do you measure disparate groups with a single points-based system?
     

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