PIL or no?

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by Alex Aj Jones, Nov 20, 2015.

  1. Alex Aj Jones

    Alex Aj Jones Rookie

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    I was watching a sabre poule bout at a recent tournament. The phrase went as so..

    FOL attacked and parried by FOR

    FOR doesn't riposte (did nothing)

    FOL sticks arm out (not intending to PIL)

    FOR lunges after arm is already extended

    Both lights

    Point given to FOR as attack, parry, no riposte, attack is touche.

    This happened 3 times in that one bout.

    Is this call correct? How do you differentiate from a PIL and an attack with the point.

    Cheers

    AJ
     
  2. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    Looking through forum to see if there were any old unanswered questions. I'll take my best shot at this one.
    To answer your last question: PIL cannot be established in the opponent is attacking but otherwise can be established. AFAIK it can be established (technically although possibly not practically) at any distance, whether 1m or 10m away. If you are attacking, I see no reason why you could not stop advancing and establish point in line. If you have point in line, then you may be able to start attacking (depending what your opponent does), but since attacks and PIL are separate things, you necessarily have to no longer have PIL to attack. You can advance, retreat, and even lunge with PIL, but all those actions are simply PIL, not attacks. Really this is a technical quibble since a fencer who attacks with the point and a fencer with PIL both have right of way.

    Judging from how you wrote out the scenario, I'd call it PIL FOL, attack FOR, PIL has priority over simple attack so touch left. Fencer's intent is irrelevant since the ref never knows a fencer's intent (although they do often try to guess in RoW weapons). Per my first answer, if both fencers are just standing there doing nothing, then either fencer can start attacking or establish PIL -- sounds like that's what FOL did.
     
  3. Archerlite

    Archerlite Made the Cut

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    Hi,
    It's always hard to answer something like that without the video. Everything depends on the time they used to play. Are you sure the PIL was really correct ? Or that the arm's extension finished before FOR starts to attack ?
    Technically, the answer above is perfect.

    While a PIL, the arm must be perfectly motionless, or it is broken. Then, attack is defined by a lunge/fl├Ęche. As I said, everything is a question of time. I think in Sabre you can also judge an attack with the feet.
     
  4. fencer-dad-of-fencer

    fencer-dad-of-fencer Made the Cut

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    I'm no expert, but I don't think maintaining a PIL requires that "the arm must be perfectly motionless". It has to be straight, and it has to continuously threaten target. Can someone more knowledgable comment?
     
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  5. Archerlite

    Archerlite Made the Cut

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    You can change the target with moving your wrist, if you keep threatening the opponent, but if the arm goes back just a bit, the PIL ends.
     
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  6. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    That's kinda falling into a ref grey area. If they think you're simply moving around the target area, you;re probably ok. But if they think you're searching for the other blade, it's gone.

    You CAN disengage around an attempt to find your blade, but only IF they're actively searching.
     
  7. bobb121

    bobb121 Podium

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    PIL also needs to be FULLY Established prior to the attack of advance lunge.
     
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  8. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    Any time you take a point in line you are making a huge bet on the referee seeing things your way. It's a bet that -- in my experience -- has a poor pay off.
     
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  9. Archerlite

    Archerlite Made the Cut

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    Hi,
    As a referee, I always give the PIL but only if it's PERFECTLY executed. Even a tiny error breaks the PIL, in my opinion. So don't bend your body, don't move your arm and don't send the tip off the target area.
     
  10. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Bending your body has nothing to do with PIL. If you used that as a justification for disallowing an otherwise proper PIL, I'd ask for a bout committee for misapplication of the rules.

    Breaking the line? Yeah. Going off-target while disengaging around an attempt to find? Yeah.

    But bending the body? No....show me the rule.
     
  11. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Which is why I use it without real intent to hit with it. It's useful to slow an opponent down, or to set up for a countercut or a parry. If the opponent happens to impale himself on it, great, but that's not something upon which to rely.
     
  12. Grey Sabreur

    Grey Sabreur Made the Cut

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    Me - fully extended arm, point of the sabre dead centre on his chest and step back before opponent moves.
    Opponent - step forward, lunge with simple attack and impales himself.
    Referee - PIL disallowed - "You stepped back."
    Sheesh.
     
  13. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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  14. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

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    This is absolutely wrong, obviously.
     
  15. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Oh come on...."Sir, show me the rule."

    Absolutely was yours...all day long.
     
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  16. ChrisL

    ChrisL Made the Cut

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    Not defending it but....are you trying to hit with point in line if you are also trying to avoid being hit. Is it a line or a counterattack?
     
  17. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    I have learned to my cost that some referees are not familiar with the nuaces of line in sabre, they just don't see it used very often. It leads to some whimsical calls.

    For instance, I still see some refs who will call an attack with a search for the line "no" if the line is removed and defender hits with a cut rather than just derobing and hitting with the point.
     
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  18. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    If line is properly established and nothing happens to remove it (breaking the line, being parried, etc), avoiding being hit is irrelevant...a line is a line is a line.

    Happened to me when I was competing regularly. Was fencing some kid who didn't know what PIL was. It was me 13 him something like 7, so he was probably gonna lose anyway. Larry Dunn was directing.

    On the command to fence, I retreat a few steps and throw the line out...WELL in advance of any action on his part.

    He waltzed forward and whacked me.... but also ran onto my point with no attempt to find it...I didn't even flinch.

    Larry awards me the point and the kid starts losing it, claiming he had ROW. He'd already had a prior yellow for something else, and finally calmed down when Larry asked him if he'd rather lose by getting hit or by a red card (because he was about to earn one for unjustified appeal).

    Kids shut up and basically stood there when I finished him off.

    If I have PIL properly established and my opponent does nothing to even make me move, I don't care if I get hit so ling as I put the point on him.

    I'll agreed with Inq, tho, that it seems a lot of people just don't know what PIL is.
     
  19. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    If you're trying to avoid being hit (in the opinion of the ref), you should not expect to get the line called. And before you appeal to the rule book, remember that it isn't a treatise on fencing.

    That being said, stepping back should have been fine; you can move with the line without invalidating it.
     
  20. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    ONLY if said move is in response to an attempted parry...and even then, PIL is lost if the line breaks during that action or the point goes off line to target (I lost a perfect derobement that way).

    If you move the blade as if you're disengaging around an attempted parry BUT there is no actual attempt to parry, you lose the line because your action is now a search, and a search is not PIL/
     

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