Passing in epee - current interpretation

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by nwtrout, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. nwtrout

    nwtrout Made the Cut

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    This discussion topic came up at the JAN NAC and at a local tourney recently.

    What is the current direction/directive/take on what constitutes passing in epee, and thus halt of fencing?

    I understand its changed over the past few years from shoulder, to center mass, to hips, to thighs, to as long as any body part of the two fencers are still crossed, a pass hasn't taken place - even trailing leg, non-weapon arm or foot. It seems to be rather fluid.

    Thanks
     
  2. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Completely passed, i.e. you can see space between the fencers.
     
  3. Archerlite

    Archerlite Rookie

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    The rules say : «When a fencer FULLY passed his opponent, the referee has to immediately give the command : "Halte" »

    So you have to wait the fencer be totally behind his/her opponent, no care of the weapon.
     
  4. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    So... when you have a lazier type of referee who keeps standing at the far end of the other side of the strip, how do they tell when fencers are "completely passed"?
     
  5. Archerlite

    Archerlite Rookie

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    If the referee keep his eyes closed, the Rules can't be used with him, obviously.
     
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  6. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    In practice, they make their best guess of it. In actuality, they just don't know. Ergo why it's important to follow the bout and maintain proper positioning. Granted it's often hard to practically do so in venues below NAC level due to proximity of strips to one-another (ref can't stand far enough back to get the proper angle at the end of the strip).
     
  7. Privateer

    Privateer Podium

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    honest question, do you get time to riposte in epee like is generally awarded in foil?
     
  8. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Parsing your question, the fencer who is passed must begin his *action* (rules don't say "riposte") before he is passed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  9. Privateer

    Privateer Podium

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    so if I parry a fleche let's say, I can wait for the opponent to pass so I have a their big fat back as an easy target, yes?
     
  10. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    No. Your action must begin before your opponent has passed - regardless his back's size and BFP.;)
     
  11. MHS Fencer

    MHS Fencer DE Bracket

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    If you're deliberately waiting it's almost certainly not a single action. It's parry-riposte not parry, riposte.
     
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  12. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    You must begin your action (riposte or otherwise) before they pass; you are allowed to finish it after they pass. So, if you wait until they have passed (in foil, epee, or saber), no, your action that begins after the pass will not be allowed. Of course, interpretation of when that pass occurs is in the realm of subjective referee opinion, and generally some leeway is given.
     
  13. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

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    I am pretty sure that repoiste is a separate action so the riposte must start before your opponent passes you.
     
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  14. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

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    No, because you would not have started your action -- in this case, a riposte -- before the pass. I believe what Mac is saying is that the action that begins before the pass need not be a riposte. For example, even without a parry, a counterattack begun before the opponent passes may score after the opponent is past.
     
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  15. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    If you make it one continuous motion so that it looks like you started the riposte before they passed, yes.

    But you should note that lots of people will be trying to hit you as they pass, or after they have passed. Or they may 'accidentally' hit the floor as they pass. Those would lock you and your no-doubt valid riposte out, even if the touch doesn't count.
     
  16. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    the action (riposte) must be immediate and continuous, but yes.
     
  17. schlager7

    schlager7 DE Bracket

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    As always, a riposte, to be a riposte, must immediately follow the parry (although the riposte, itself, need not be all that fast).
     
  18. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Cardable.
     
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  19. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    It's a card if it is clearly an attempt to hit the floor. If I fleche, you parry 6, I roll to 1 as I pass and jab at your knee or foot, I'm damn sure going to hit something. If I hit your foot, good. If I hit the floor, sorry. If it was within a reasonable radius of your foot, that's not a card from the vast majority of referees.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  20. downunder

    downunder Podium

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    Why are saying the action/riposte needs to starts before the pass? The rules are very clear that an immediate action after the pass is good:

    “When hits are made as a fencer passes his opponent, the hit made immediately is valid; a hit made after passing his opponent by the competitor who has made the passing movement is annulled, but the hit made immediately, even when turning round, by the competitor who has been subjected to the offensive action, is valid.”
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
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