Pacific Coast Championships?

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by oldfencer, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. oldfencer

    oldfencer Rookie

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    What happened to the Pacific Coast Championships? I know very little about the history of that tournament, though I often see it referenced particularly by current coaches who had competed in the event back in the day. Just curious...
     
  2. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    There haven't seen sectional championships for years....not since the qualification paths for nationals changed (2006 ish?)

    The last PCCs were in Las Vegas, and to give you an idea of how bad it was: Men's foil....2 entrants...TWO!

    This from an event that would've been an A4 in earlier years.
     
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  3. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    The last Senior Pacific Coast Championship tournament was held in San Rafael in 2011:

    https://askfred.net/Results/results.php?tournament_id=14683

    In its later years, PCCs were the Pacific Coast section championships and vice-versa. When the USFA eliminated qualifying for Summer Nationals via Sectional events, enthusiasm for organizing and operating the Section and the PCCs pretty much evaporated.

    There were some great PCC perpetual trophies - some with history dating back to the (?) 30s. While technically owned by the section, I'd guess many are likely in the possesion their 2011 winners. It would be great if they eventually found their way to the West Coast Fencing Archive or if some ROC or other tournament organizer restarted a Pacific Coast Championships and continued the tradition.
     
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  4. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    Sections do still technically exist. Great Lakes section has still run sectionals from time to time. Maybe you can get pacific coast to revive them.
     
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  5. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    They 'technically exist' only in the sense that US Fencing hasn't removed the listings. But considering they get no money and they have no official standing with US Fencing. For example, what Divisions comprise the Pacific Coast Section or even the Great Lakes Section. I am sure you can tell me historically, but can you find any current US Fencing document that supports that. For example if you check the Division page https://www.usafencing.org/page/show/2520204-division-bylaws-and-info-for-members there is nothing to tie the Divisions to the Sections.

    It would be easy to get rid of the Divisions the same way. Check out the bylaws, the dues you and I pay to US Fencing. Are they required to give a portion of that to the Divisions? NO! They got rid of the sections by saying they were no longer an 'Administrative unit'. So division, as long as they are 'Administrative units', will get money from US Fencing? NO! This is a quote from the bylaws, 'In its discretion, the Board of Directors may allocate a portion of the dues collected in any one year from all classes of individual competitive memberships to administrative units of the USFA in such proportion as the Board of Directors determines, . . .'

    What was big in the Pacific Coast was not the Sectionals, but the Pacific Coast Circuit they promoted. Many of the best run and well attended tournaments were part of it. The start of the Regional tournaments reduce the opportunities in the West.
     
  6. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

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    The Pacific Coast Section men's epee team trophy currently resides at East Bay Fencers Gym. If you are ever there, it's on top of the trophy case by the front desk. My name is on the 1979 plate. My best day of fencing ever! I only lost one bout. :)
     
  7. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    Thanks for the clarification @DHCJr. I didn't know the details but they exist enough that I see sections hold championships. Maybe these are just some tournament organizer slapping Sectional Champs on the name of their tournament, but I assumed someone was authorizing them to do so. The USFA hasn't complained in sanctioning the events, although I'd be a bit surprised if they even looked at the names of the tournaments when they approve ratings changes. I also know from previous threads that sections often owned equipment and some still do (there was a question awhile back of what they should do with this equipment). I presume they once existed and therefore some probably still do exist as legal entities, so I'd say that serves as "technically existing" as much as anything else. These sections probably have charters or bylaws that state their boundaries, so I'd say that's an official designation even if the USFA doesn't officially endorse it (it doesn't contradict it either -- no rules say a section can't play basketball if ya get the reference).

    FWIW I haven't been fencing competitively long enough to have experienced sections as they once were. Sure it's a shame to lose a strong regional tournament, especially one with a team event as those are few and far between, but we've also gained a lot in USFA-run regional events. My metropolitan area alone has gained at least 2 ROCs per season and all we had to give up was 1 sectional which only was in our area 1 year in 5 (assuming it rotated between divisions). Now granted nothing says sections had to be disbanded in order to get ROCs and the like, and I think they could only serve to help divisions and the regions if they still existed, but are people really missing them from an administrative point of view? I ask that honestly because I haven't heard so.
     
  8. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    Just an aside but some Sections and I believe the Pacific Coast Section is one, have legal status as incorporated entities often 501(c)3 charitable organizations outside of any status as USA Fencing administrative units. And I believe the Pacific Coast Section still retains or did retain some equipment and perhaps even funds. As far as I know there have not been any elections for the PCS in some years and that property remains in the hands of who ever was the last elected officers.
     
  9. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    As far as I know, Sectional funds should have been distributed to the constitute Divisions some time ago.
     
  10. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    They were.
     
  11. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    I won't post all the post above, but just make some comments. First some history, the Pacific Coast Sectional tournament was the first and started in 1925. 9 years later the first Mid-West Sectionals occurred. 5 years later the All Eastern Sectionals occurred, as well as the first Nationals outside of New York. That was held in San Francisco. In 1940 there was slightly over 1,200 fencers in the entire country.

    By 1965, there was the South West Section and the All Eastern had changed their name to North Atlantic. Each section had their own rules on who could fence, where it would be, etc. PCS being the oldest had the most rules. You may notice I didn't mention Metropolitan. In 1940 they were considered Non-Divisional fencers. As an experiment, the New York Metropolitan Committee would be in charge, while all other Non-Divisional fencers were the responsibility of the Board of Governors. In 1965 Metropolitan was a Division, but not yet a Section, nor part of any section.

    Now for the comments. When Sectionals became qualifying paths for Nationals, they had one more purpose, promote inter-divisional competitions. The Pacific Coast Circuit fulfilled that purpose. Many sections didn't. For them the regional competitions are a good thing as they brought more competition. For us, it restricted the numbers. I forgot how many ROC each region has, but there were 7 each year in the section, which is smaller than the region.

    Technically, the Section owns some equipment, but do to some permanent borrow of equipment, there really anything left.
     
  12. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    Under the pre-2010 Bylaws, sections were defined as non-administrative units. "They" did not get rid of sections by saying they were no longer an administrative unit, they already weren't. Indeed, "they" didn't get rid of sections at all. The transition article of the Bylaws (Article XVII) explicitly retained sections:

    Sections still exist and should still be operating in accordance with their section bylaws. Obviously that isn't happening in many (any?) sections (e.g., annual elections, what?).

    B
     
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  13. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    So...the notorious unfunded mandate?
     
  14. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    They no longer receive the $1/member rebate (that was reallocated to member clubs), but otherwise have the same powers and funding sources they had in 2010 and before. Historically, some sections did a lot, some sections did nothing beyond orchestrate which division was running/hosting one or two sectional championships (depending on whether that section split seniors and juniors). Now it appears that no section does much. On the other hand, they're not mandated to do much (continue to follow their bylaws and provide annual financial reports to the national office), so not much of an unfunded mandate.

    B
     
  15. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    Just a followup, but who are the current or last elected officers of the Pacific Coast Section? I did a rudimentary search on Google but didn't find much other than this thread.
     
  16. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    The officers for the 2010-2011 season are:

    Chair – Richard Vidor
    Vice Chair – Peter Buchard
    Secretary – Tom Tully
    Treasurer – Terry Dix
     
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  17. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    What you just described is exactly an unfunded mandate. "By our command you will do thus and such but we will give you no funding to do any of it".

    Allowing sections to find their own funding...is not funding. The mandate of duties and actions is there, without the support.
     

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