New style Epee Mask Issues

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by jjefferies, Mar 16, 2019.

  1. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    Just received a new FWF epee mask and while trying it out found one issue. The new style connection for the elastic band isn't quite as well thought out as one might hope. See the first photo:

    When putting the mask on the elastic moves around as in the 2nd photo. Any suggestions on how to fix this or should just return it as unacceptable? OR is this a known and accepted problem with all the new masks?
     

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    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  2. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    Send FWF the picture and ask them what you're supposed to do about that.

    It's bad design. Flat rings like that are intended to be used with heavy webbing, not light elastic that can slide to the ends like that.

    When we were discussing this ages ago I mentioned this problem:

    Your picture is exactly what my friend said would happen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  3. Mergs

    Mergs Podium

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    Yes, this is a bad design, and as Kevin said, may work with solid webbing, but not elastic. One fix is to run a seam of thread between the two pieces of the strap attached to the mask close to the oval ring.
     
  4. Joe biebel

    Joe biebel Podium

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    perhaps a sewn stitch on the elastic on both sides of the mask, as close as possible to the rectangular "ring" on the side that attached to the mask shell might prevent the unwanted rotation.
     
  5. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    Thanks for the replies. I'm leaning toward returning it. Looking at the mask it appears to me that the design does not remove the elastic as a failure point. In the past that was my biggest issue with the FWF mask which otherwise is very strong and fits my face. Well I do admit that daily use does wear out the cloth liner rather quickly. Something that I hoped the replaceable liner would correct. But returning it means it cost me $36. to try it on. Will look at others at the NAC hopefully at less expense.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  6. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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    J Jefferies

    Get a needle and thread, Poly thread, not cotton. Sew a line through both sides of the elastic onto the holder so that it cannot slip/slide around. Your done.
    Armorer's" You can send FWF or Negrini or anyone else a message on this, but know, this is what the FIE Semi wanted, the mfg cannot make any changes to it unless, changes made, then send it to Semi, then get re-approval to the update on something the Semi is wanting. In the Southern tongue: it ain't happening.

    We are the approved mask strap updater here in the US for Negrini, PBT and Absolute Fencing. I had to go through a lot of fine details - studying - video's to get the approval which they call the Power Of Attorney to even do the updates here in the US.

    Someone is going to mention what they are doing in Europe right now. I understand. But the agreement I signed, does not match what they are doing.

    Most likely someone is going to ask if we do the ones for Uhlmann-Allstar masks, answer: no.

    Gary Spruill
     
  7. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    Gary, what you're describing is called a binding stitch. It will help, but it won't fix the problem.

    The short bit of elastic holding the O-ring to the mask is too soft, it's letting the O-ring tilt to one side. The solution is for the bit holding the O-ring to be stiff nylon webbing, and to use heavier elastic on the strap. In sailing, stuff like the trapeze harness is a very evolved bit of kit, and a jammed strap there can be serious if you can't get out of the thing when you want to (like when the boat is upside down). Riggers take this stuff really seriously, and when I showed an experienced rigger the FIE design he immediately said that if they use light elastic the O-rings will tilt and the strap will jam.
     
  8. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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    Hey Kevin,

    I just pulled a AF mask that uses that same black plastic rectangular ring.
    Made it do the 'binding' - 'bulking up' like in the image.
    Used a needle and thread, sewed a simple poly stitch from one end to the other and yes, it still did a little, but stopped most of it.

    From your below message about what is suppose to be used to make it work correctly
    The design I submitted to the SEMI was from automotive seat belt material webbing. Same stuff they use in cars. They turned it down. No reason given. I agree, it should be stronger, but its what they approved and now that mask, with that up date kit from that mfg, is not going to change unless they go through the process of testing again and approvals and adding them to the vault and so on.

    Just one more item to think about when making a buying decision now. Fencing equipment is a maze, and man do I know it.

     
  9. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    For now.

    I have done this many time with the D-rings on jackets and plastrons and the rectangular rings for the suspenders on knickers. It always works great...in the beginning. After a few wearings and washings, believe me, it will all go pear-shaped. Literally. The fix doesn't last very long. The D-ring will end up hanging suspended by one corner with all the material bunched up there, and the rectangular rings will end up hanging by one of the short sides with all the material bunched up there. :(
     
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  10. EldRick

    EldRick Podium

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    Perhaps one could sew a short strip of nylon webbing on the inside of the elastic where it passes thru the flat-ring? Maybe sew it along the elastic edges?
    As it stands, that is a stunningly stupid design, and the elastic won't last long stressed like that.
     
  11. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    Ok. I mean, it's not going to work. They can say what they want, a couple of old Italian guys voting in a room can't change the laws of nature. If they build them like that they're all going to tilt and jam. As Inq says, a binding stitch will work for a while, but as the elastic breaks in the ring will tilt.
     
  12. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    "Captain...I canna change the laws of physics!"
     
  13. Pezza

    Pezza Rookie

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    A word of warning .if you have your masks retrofitted with the new strap make sure that the person doing it is authorised to do it. Someone came over to my state to retrofit the masks and as far as I'm concerned it was a disaster. no two masks were alike, the riveting was terrible . some rivets have already started popping out. 1 fencer at my club has already had his three masks redone. I won't mention manufacturers or names .some are far better than others. Pezza
     
  14. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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    Pezza,

    As far as I know, the Negrini - PBT & AF masks: we are the only retro-fitter approved here in the USA to do the update. Well, AF may do their own? Don't know, have not asked. We will only do those three masks, meaning: hand me a mask from Uhlmann or Allstar or something else and it's a 'ain't' happening answer.
    As far as our work, every single mask we do, has to have two sets of eyes on it, one doing it, approved and an additional person approving it as well before it's handed back to the customer. It only makes sense to do it this way cause its going to worn by a fencer and his/her head is pretty important to us.
    Since I do not know the State your in, I have no clue who may be doing this.
    Big note: only 'approved' with a mfg power of attorney can be given the update kit parts from each mfg. I have my (3) approved power of attorney letters in my back pack and can and do order the update parts from each mfg and have signed an agreement with each mfg not to give-sell-offer these kits to anyone except us to install. Meaning: someone out there is approved, someone has a power of attorney from a mfg and is doing the update and is in your words a disaster. Hope none of them were from us.

    Gary Spruill



     
  15. Pezza

    Pezza Rookie

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    Gary
    I know you will do the right thing .I was just warning people that there are others that are not doing the right thing and are not authorised.
    Gary,
    None of them are yours as I'm not in the USA. I know you will do the right thing. I was just warning people that there are others that don't do the right thing. 20190209_142936_resized.jpg 20190220_203611_resized.jpg Attached are a couple of photos showing poor riveting . As you can see one of the rivets has already popped out.
    Pezza
     
  16. touchefriend

    touchefriend Made the Cut

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    I have one of these FWF masks. The elastic does slide to one side but doesn't affect the holding power. Mine has never fallen off or become loose. I like the snaps holding the strap on one side and that side never seems to bunch up .
     
  17. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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    Pezza,
    From your images, those rivets are toast!
    Never grabbed to the shaft, did not mushroom, need to be replaced for safety reasons.

    Texan: that just ain't right!

    The next problem is: they are in the mask holes, and there is not a darn thing weapon control can do or say to keep the fencer safe with this. Shame. Maybe I am wrong? Hope so.

     
  18. Pezza

    Pezza Rookie

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    Gary,
    Those rivets were replaced with the correct rivets by a person authorised to do those masks. ( see attached photo)
    This fencer had the rivets replaced on three of his masks .
    My son's masks were also done by this person. I wasn't happy about it but I had no choice. The only other option i had was to ship them back to Europe.
    Pezza
     

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  19. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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    Penzza,
    Is the image you have listed on your last post, are these the screwed up ones or the fixed ones?
    Reason I am asking is: every single image you have listed, are all done wrong.
    I am hoping your mask has something different that from what you have shown on any image you have posted.
    Not kidding.

     
  20. Pezza

    Pezza Rookie

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    Gary,
    I think the rivets in the last image I posted are pop rivets and are supposed to be the correct rivets. I have attached a picture of the rivets on my son's mask compared to the manufacturers rivets. I'm not happy with the rivets on my son's mask but I had no choice as I am not authorised to do it. I could have done better. The white Rivet is the manufacturer's rivet.
    Pezza White rive sendt25_resized.jpg Gary bad rivet send7_resized.jpg
     

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