New LP Product- Cantiliver posting / pommeling system patent pending GB1306080.1

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by Alex_Paul, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. Alex_Paul

    Alex_Paul Podium

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    Brand new product out today which has been some time in the making. A few years ago we realised that people were going to extraordinary lengths to put together pommelling handle setups. Lots of fencers were keen to try but the whole process was shrouded in mystery. Many fencers simply didn't bother because they didn't know what combinations of parts from which manufacturers worked well.

    When we started designing this we had only one aim, to make a system that was simple enough that anyone could put together a decent pommelling setup.

    Clearing the first hurdle of which parts to buy from who was easy, you buy the whole system from us and you know it will all work together!

    To recreate as best as possible what top fencers were using we got together as much data as we could in terms of samples and photos plus advice from some top coaches. We decided that the handle had to have a straight through hole so you didn't have to curve the tang to match a curved hole through a grip. We then needed a way to allow you to get the s shape where the handle bends both at the front and at the pommel.

    The solution was a simple but very effective, we use a locking nut to hold the handle on and the pommel is a separate piece. The locking nut is attached using a C spanner fitted in a small hole in the nut so that the nut is nice and smooth. Once this is fitted you bend the protruding end of the tang and fit the desired pommel. The locking nut and pommel have matching concave and convex faces to help them marry up without leaving a gap and there is a chamfer inside the locking nut so that the bend takes place over a short radius in between the nut and pommel.

    There is a small picture of the parts here but more on the LP site:

    Touch_small.jpg

    We tested about 10 different pommel sizes and weights and ended up with three to choose from.

    The counterbalance Large pommel
    This pommel made of stainless steel to give you good balance for both pommelling and normal use. The 30 mm diameter gives you a nice hand full of pommel with a balanced knurl to give you good grip without causing too much glove wear. Being stainless steel it will outlast all your other kit and it can be tightened as much as you like without any danger of damaging the threads. At 250g it is designed for the fencer that likes the balance of the weapon way back in their hand.

    The ultralight Large pommel
    Made of aluminium to give you a nice hand full of pommel without adding too much weight. This large pommel weighs only 90g meaning you can hardly feel the weight at all. At 30mm diameter it is fatter than a normal pommel to give you extra grip and control but the light weight is a killer combo when used with a lightweight Leon Paul epee blade.

    Note, be careful when tightening this pommel as the threads are aluminium. you should only ever hand tighten it, never clamp it in a vice or use anything mechanical as you may strip the threads. As you have the special locking nut to keep the handle tight hand tight should be just fine and if you do have a pommel working loose a drop of threadlock will fix it.

    The ultralight X Large pommel
    Bigger is better with this ultra fat pommel; it may look unusual but it feels great in the hand! Made of aluminium so that it doesn't slow you down it weighs in only 125g despite its 35mm girth. The steep angle at the front of the pommel gives you a nice place to rest your finger to gives you extra grip and leverage. If the truth be told even though your hand isn't fixed in one place you really only want to hold it one way!

    Most people seem to prefer the aluminium pommels but a few like the weight of the steel.

    It works really well covered in our new grippy tape http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Ultra-Grippy-French-Handle-Wrap.html

    Please fire away with questions.

    http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Cantliver-Epee-Handle-1.html

    It will be up on the US site soon.
     
  2. damianip

    damianip Podium

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    This is interesting to say the least.

    Of course, I just picked up a few Harut grips after experimenting with them for a while. The Harut with the 200g LP pommel makes a well balanced weapon that feels lighter than it should. The main reason I use the 200g is for the gripping diameter.

    It will be interesting to see how the Cantilever system feels.

    They do have quite a challenge to match the curve and excellent fit of the Harut Grand Prix which feels about as close to perfect for me as any French grip has ever gotten.

    The real question is: How big is this market? Really...

    Yesterday, I was recruited to fence at a tournament where I was refereeing in order to get the size up to 25 and therefore an A2. In a that field, there were 3 French grip users.

    I really shouldn't complain as suddenly there seems to be a flood of well thought out and executed French grip/pommel designs when for years it was not like that.
     
  3. Alex_Paul

    Alex_Paul Podium

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  4. PeterGustafsson

    PeterGustafsson Rookie

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    Hi!


    Diameter question:
    How large can the diameter of the heavy part be before it will be considered a protrusion, so that the thumb must be close to the inside of the bell?


    Suggestion:
    You could make the nut threading of the aluminum parts out of a steel inset, which is pushed into a matching hole in the aluminium part. Make the OD of the stell inset somewhat larger than the ID of the hole, and you have a press fit. No risk of the thread stripping.



    Have a nice time!

    Peter Gustafsson
     
  5. EldRick

    EldRick Podium

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    I love it! You are getting the same objections from the same sort of people that hit me upside the head when I first introduced the Sintered Tungsten Pommel with Alu threads, and you've got the same solutions I offered - a lock washer or threadlocker.

    Next, Craig should review it and pan it because it has aluminum threads and no hole to tighten it with.

    BTW, I've now got the means of production for Eggpommel v2 - the Really Ultralight pommel, with a much better shape, and under 20g. Stay tuned...
     
  6. damianip

    damianip Podium

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    I'm not sure if that is what kept fencers away from French grips, but I am certainly appreciative of the development effort LP put into French grips in general. While I no longer use the LP Lightweight Carbon Fibre Handle, it allowed me to keep fencing while slowly recovering from a severe case of tendonitis in the shoulder and elbow (brought on by age, pommeling and a relatively heavy SS grip and pommel set up).

    I have spent a lot of time creating/modifying "almost there" grip-pommel configurations over the years. The older I get, the more sensitive I get to weight and balance in the weapon (both for fencing effectiveness and more importantly, physical damage to my joints.). It's nice to see a an expanding variety of off the shelf innovation solutions out there to create a better balanced weapon. Gives me more time to fence instead of grind, sanding, bending or welding.

    Of course, what I would really like to see is the various length, diameter, and weight LP pommels for use with any French grip. :)

    However, if wishes were fishes...

    In the meantime, I applaud your innovation and, as a inveterate and unapologetic technocrat, I will be getting at least one Cantilever handle with which to experiment.
     
  7. damianip

    damianip Podium

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    Eldrick, I hope you realize that I include you in the group of FG innovators. Certainly, your work has a part in driving larger scale manufacturers to examine the potential of the FG as more than an anachronistic artifact of "ye olde days".

    I think that the LP solution is a bit different than just a lock washer because it is a threaded collar that you can "crank" down to insure the tight integrity of the grip-guard-blade unit, removing that function from the pommel itself. We will see if this helps.

    Also, for me, the use of aluminum threads is still a point of apprehension due to the tendency of counter blade actions (eight or six depending on whether you are right or left handed) to unscrew the pommel. Some French grip users don't use a lot of heavy blade actions, and for them this is not a huge issue, but some do, and, for them, it is a big issue.

    I find it amusing in bouts with other FG users when there is that simultaneous "crank the pommel down" moment by both fencers after a particularly heated exchange of counter blade actions.

    I would still prefer an actual nut counter sunk into the back of the pommel which would allow tightening akin to a pistol grip. I'm not sure if there is wording in the rules preventing this, in which case, we would be back to the mostly and complex insert idea.

    Paolo
     
  8. fencerX

    fencerX Rookie

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    Looks cool.

    But it's amusing if you really think those people who just couldn't be bothered to get a french grip epee together -- now that that "problem" is solved -- will somehow now also find the mindset required to put in the time and effort needed to become pommelers.
     
  9. Alex_Paul

    Alex_Paul Podium

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    1 That is not for me to decide!

    2 We could but it is harder than you think to get a "press fit" between metal so it would almost certainly need glue. You are then into tricky assembly and added cost etc... As Rick points out his aluminium pommels had no insert and we didn't have any strip. I have not managed to strip one but I want to be clear that if people lock the pommel in a vice and then use a spanner on the blade to tighten it then you may well strip the thread!

    The gripping part of the job is done with the locking nut which is steel and can be cranked as tight as you like so I see this as a non issue TBH.

    You can lead a horse to water...
     
  10. damianip

    damianip Podium

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    Alex,

    When will this be available on the LP USA site?
     
  11. cyamada

    cyamada Rookie

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  12. damianip

    damianip Podium

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  13. Marquis1972

    Marquis1972 Made the Cut

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    I've been looking into this product seriously for some time and might go for it. After all, I'm comfortable using French grips on epee for the most part and use a Zivkovic on special cases.
     
  14. Doug Tableman

    Doug Tableman Rookie

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    Is Leon Paul currently working on a new version of the Carbon Fiber handle, or anything else that can adapt pistol cut blades to french grip? Curious as a potential customer. Thank you.
     
  15. Alex_Paul

    Alex_Paul Podium

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    Yes we are, I currently have some carbon tube that is a 14mm by 17mm section so lot thinner than the existing CF handle. it will fit on a pistol grip. It is made from extruded carbon fibre so it is straight.


    Have a look at the pictures and details here

    http://www.fencing.net/forums/thread63301-4.html

    and here

    http://www.fencing.net/forums/thread63301-4.html#post1007197
     
  16. Doug Tableman

    Doug Tableman Rookie

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    That looks fantastic. Do you have any idea when it might be available for sale? As someone recovering from a wrist injury who needs to be able to switch back and forth, your long PG handles are my best bet.

    -Doug
     
  17. Alex_Paul

    Alex_Paul Podium

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    sadly will be 3-6 months as I have to design the core, have a tool made test etc...
     
  18. Doug Tableman

    Doug Tableman Rookie

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    A little patience is probably a good thing. Is there a reason that the specs suggest a 17mm length instead of the 20mm legally allowed?
     
  19. Alex_Paul

    Alex_Paul Podium

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    What length are you referring to?

    The tube is a rectangular 14mm by 17mm cross section. The length is 190mm which gives you 10mm for the guard, IGS and pad.
     

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