New FIE Mask Requirements

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by bobb121, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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  2. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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    Sam, Mergs, Brian - all

    Its called a loop ring, aka: 2" loop ring, as shown in the pdf file from the SEMI

    Want to go deeper?? The one in pdf file from the SEMI is a YKK Plastic Loop Ring 2 inch.

    Approved folks to do it, send mask back, when overseas?? This is the exact same discussion we had when the foil bib came into our world. Do we send a FIE foil masks back to the mfg to have them replaced?? Do we send FIE jackets back to have them sewn up when ripped up or a zipper replaced?
    The SEMI is telling us the *what* they want. Mfg's of masks have sent them the updates of the mask straps to have their homoligation updated as an update/apex to the homoligation number they were assigned and the new mask(s) put into the vault as an example of "non-change" for future evolution and compassion.Not that the mfg must do the update. Someone show me the *where* it says a fencer cannot do it themselves? Or, it must be done by the mfg.?

    The reason the SEMI sent out what they did is: to show folks what they want, now it up to us to figure out *if* we want to pass the same rule, and; if we do, this is the rule and this is how to follow it. Nothing else? if we do pass it, we (here in the US) will have to figure out how to test it. This is only my opinion. If yours is different, show me, don't tell me.

    I have already bought the parts, most already here. I am already in the testing phase to get that *stupid* 170lbs stress test figured out. Bought a 200lb fishing scale and have yet to get one fail. Still stupid.

    If someone can show me I am wrong, I can and will shelve the project and move on. When asked: Can you do it? My answer will be: send it back to where you bought it or buy a new mask. I do know that; I am doing all the Negrini mask updates and using my parts here in the US for masks we have sold.

    Gary Spruill
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  3. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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    Donald,
    I understand and respect your opinion, but mine is different to yours.
    I see the *most* of the Exec's on the SEMI as total dufel-berries from the show Hee-Haa! Click Here
    They have no clue. They don't know they need a clue, and they are never going to have a clue!
    It's (IMO) a monster mash pit full of political A-holes all looking to put themselves in the front line to get ahead of something??
    In short: they don't know what they are doing. They are put on that comm/board due to the fact they had to put them somewhere and this is where they landed! Again: My Opinion!

     
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  4. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    This thread is descending into gloom, despair, and agony.
     
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  5. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Deep dark depression excessive misery?
     
  6. brtech

    brtech Podium

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    I wouldn't spend much money on this until US SEMI and the Board decide if/when/how we do this. We may decide not to do it, in which case you don't need anything. We may decide to do it and use armorer judgement on whether any modification is good enough. We may decide to do it and only let mfgs upgrade. We could decide anyone can do the upgrade but only with the same parts the mfg uses and the same methods. We could decide to write a spec on what we will accept.

    At this point, I have no idea where we will end up, and thus I would urge caution on guessing what will be needed.
     
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  7. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Meh....grabbing a couple of loops and an old mask to test ideas on is hardly an expensive deal.

    However, you're looking at it from a purely armorer's perspective. For a vendor it's a little different.

    We don't want to be suddenly stuck with inventory we can't sell if the change is adopted across the board. Yes, someone like SwordMasters, Fencing Post, or another large vendor could send masks back to be corrected, but that still costs time and money...it'd be even worse for a small guy like me or Gladius.

    The ability to have an upgrade method ready to go cuts that cost down a lot, same for the time.

    Additionally,as I mentioned before, a school team with not a lot of money could retrofit if the ruling came down AND there was a means of doing so...I know a lot of teams out here don't have the funds to buy new masks en masse.

    Remember when FIE was going to remove the body cord slot of gloves? All of a sudden we started seeing gloves in the product stream with no slot because the vendors were about to have large inventory that would be illegal. The change never happened, but that's a major reason why we don;'t see the slot any more.
     
  8. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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    Sorry if I have put you into a deep depression,

    I just call it like I see it.

    I also know: most have not had to deal with the FIE SEMI like I have.


     
  9. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Dealing with CRITT to get gloves certified was bad enough.

    I never had any issues with FIE SEMI...Giandomenico Varallo was very helpful.
     
  10. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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    Sam
    Giandomenico Varallo is on the Medical side, not an Exec of the SEMI

     
  11. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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  12. twisterfencing

    twisterfencing Podium

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  13. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Incorrect. It has now happened at the FIE level:

    m.25.6 Glove At all weapons, the gauntlet of the glove must, in all circumstances, fully cover approximately half the forearm of the competitor’s sword arm to prevent the opponent’s blade entering the sleeve of the jacket. Under no circumstances should there be any hole in the hand of the glove, even to allow the passage of the body wire.​
     
  14. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Urgh....was that recent? They talked about it for years.
     
  15. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    One also wonders just how much, if any, research and consultation SEMI and the manufacturers had with medical and head protection gear specialists. What are the potential consequences of strapping equipment spec'ed to withstand a huge force across that part of the head? Could some of these manufacturer's or armorer's "solutions" be trading off stopping the occasional loss of a mask off a fencer for an increase in other issues?
     
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  16. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Of course, much of this won't mean a thing on the strip if the refs don't enforce proper wear of the strap in the first place....I will mention the Div I sabeur who had the strap above her hair bun....WAY too high...and the ref said nothing.
     
  17. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    When are we likely to get a US ruling on this?
     
  18. Purple Fencer

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    I doubt we'll see anything until well after the new year. US SEMI still has to discuss the issue and make a recommendation to USFA.

    My guess is mid-year...and for all we know, makers will start implementing the design changes to their non-FIE masks in case USFA adopts is across the board anyway.
     
  19. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    I've done a bit of a test on refitting a mask with a magnetic buckle. There's an album of images here:



    A couple of conclusions: The straps on the BG and Absolute masks can't really be moved any lower if you want to attach to mesh. The LP mask can be moved lower by several cm. As they are now, the BG and Absolute masks have the straps in about the right place, but of course are not nearly strong enough according to the new rules.

    I was a bit worried about the footman's strap on the inside of the mask, so I made a 2" x 3/8" x 3/8" block of wood and hot glued it to the inside of a mask, then put the mask on and took it off a few times.

    If you're careless you can hit your ear or your face. I think it's a bad idea. We should be thinking about riveting 2" strap directly to the mesh. Bits of metal sticking out inside the mask are a bad idea.

    I also don't like the straps going through oval loops. I ran this past a rigger I know, and he pointed out that oval loops in any kind of real tension can turn and the strap can get jammed. I think he's right, but I haven't done a mockup yet of that so I don't have any pictures.

    The album shows what I did, just for fun. Some conclusions:

    • The buckle should be further left, and the velcro on the right should be longer. That's an easy fix for the next iteration.
    • The strap is in the correct place when attached to the bottom of the mesh as shown. I just used the existing rivet hole.
    • The mask is easy to get on and off with one hand. These buckles are magic.
    • When on it is more secure than the current elastic straps.
    But, you can still yank the bottom of your mask up. You can't get the mask all the way off, but your chin can come out of the mask, even if the mask fits correctly, and the strap is snug and in the right place, and the strap has no stretch at all. You can still pop about half your face out.

    It was interesting. I think I learned a lot. If masks are refitted as the FIE wants, with heavy stretch straps, I think they'll be more secure than they are now but fencers may still be able to pull them off without releasing the velcro. Will they pass the required 170 lb test? No idea. I doubt the mask shown in the FIE letter could pass such a test, those plastic loops would break.

    Anyway, very successful first attempt, I thought. It's an interesting problem. I think next I may try replicating the FIE's setup to see how that works.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  20. dcchew

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    So, there's no easy answer to upgrading different brands of mask. I'm still thinking that this type of modification is best left to the manufacturer or approved refurbishing equipment vendor.
     

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