New Épée Rule - Massive Change

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by piste off, Sep 3, 2017.

  1. piste off

    piste off Podium

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  2. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Interesting, especially the priority part.
     
  3. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    Are you [expletive] kidding me?! :eek:Luckily I have a vibrating timer so I don't have to keep glancing at it, but keeping track of alternating priorities? // Piste or Moderator: Please establish a separate "Final Rankings" thread, or edit this thread's title to include same. Do I understand correctly that if a fencer beats his higher-seeded (lower-numbered) opponent then the winning fencer retains his lower (higher-numbered) seed in Final Ranking?
     
  4. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    When it says the priority switches, does that mean priority goes to the other fencer (which would be the easy interpretation), or they re-draw lots?
    I hope this fails.. Really, how much of a problem is this?
     
  5. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    Maybe someone with good knowledge of French can check and see if the FIE's English translation is correct.
     
  6. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    I don't interpret it that way. It looks like that rule change is made to deal with tournaments that do not have a pool round.
     
  7. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    Two more proposals to watch:
    1--Complete restructuring of the rules (might be a good thing--the present code is hard to follow)
    2--All black cards reported to Lausanne, not just those from international competition.
     
  8. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    My read is that a switch means alternating priorities - as we did after (two? three?) flesching saber simultaneous calls. Keeping pool priority track adds ref overhead and therefore, delay.
     
  9. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    Also it says for DEs max of 10 minutes with breaks at 5 and 10 hits. So they would just start the clock at 10:00 with no periods? It could take up to 9x 45 seconds = 6:45 before reaching the first break if I understand it correctly.

    As for the general proposal, I haven't given it deep thought yet, but it doesn't sound like the disaster everyone else thinks it does. But it does sound like it'll require new scoring machines.
     
  10. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    Foil isn't a complete disaster either. It's just not epee. Neither is this, really. This is half way to right of way.
    And I'll say here and now, no one knows how this will affect tactics and scoring at a high level. Look at the RBOD nonsense. They had no idea how that was going to play out. Likewise this.
    Unless you have a VSM, in which case it will take about thirty seconds to do a software update.
     
  11. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    Unless I missed it in a quick read it doesn't say that the box has a priority light or anything. So I'm counting to 45 in my head?
     
  12. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    Hopefully the US will ignore this for a year or two, until FIE comes to their senses.
    US FIE fencers will have some tactical adjustments depending on where they are fencing..
     
  13. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    And reading 8.b, "Two pauses of 1 minute are allowed when either of the fencers reaches the scores of 5 and then 10 hits." does that mean Fencer A hits 5 (B is 3), a minute break, then when Fencer B hits 5 (A is 7), the final minute break. I think I know what they are trying to say, but that's what is written.

    Can USFencing find a technical writer. Please.
     
  14. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    YM, "can FIE find a translator who understands fencing, or have a committee member who speaks English review and edit the translation before it is put out for approval?"
     
  15. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    It is quite extreme to say this is right of way. You can be aggressive without attacking and be defensive by attacking. Just look at the myriad of tactics used in priority overtimes.

    I anticipate in most bouts this change will have minimal effect, especially at the youth level, although it'll definitely favor the more tactical fencer, as current non-combativity rules do, only much more so. At the higher level there will be some interesting elements though, such as going for a double to change the priority. I anticipate it'll make epee more exciting to watch and fence. Shot clocks add consistent tension.

    I don't get why this has to be immediately tested at the international level, same as the RBOD. Why not pick a federation to test it or test it at satellite tournaments. It's very common to trial changes in the minor leagues.

    The reason I said it'll need new scoring machines (or updates) is because the FIE document mentions the chronometer will lock out after 45 seconds (which I like because it eliminates the subjectivity of current non-combativiry rules) but in order to properly lock out it has to be on the scoring machine.

    P.S. consider this interesting scenario: fencer A goes up 13-12 with 46 seconds remaining in the bout, fencer B has priority.
     
  16. EldRick

    EldRick Podium

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    Still wondering what issue this is intended to solve?
     
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  17. Ancientepee

    Ancientepee DE Bracket

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    The biggest problem that I see with implementing this is handling actions as the 45 seconds are expiring. In the days before the clocks were built into the scoring machines and had automatic cut-off when time expired, there was a lot of "discussion" as to whether a touch occurred before or after time expired and whether the time keeper started/stopped the clock correctly. The next biggest problem is how the fencers will know how much of the 45 seconds remains. So unless the scoring machines are redesigned to include a second clock to handle this, it will cause a lot of grief and "discussions".
     
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  18. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    No, Zebra is correct, this is only about competitions with no pools, like the Olympics. It tries to have written rules for this situation.

    4.The remainder are placed, in each round of the tableau:
    b) Competitions with no round of pools: according to the ranking preceding the drawing of the initial tableau and before any drawing of lots if that is required.

    I have bolded the significant part. Let us give an example. 32 fencers and you are seeded 32. You upset the #1 seed, but all the rest of the bouts for this round & the second round there are no upsets. You will have the final ranking of 16 (lowest person losing the 2nd round). The #1 seed will be in 17th place (highest person losing in the 1st round.
     
  19. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Epee?
     
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  20. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    Underlining added. FIE doesn't care if Jimmy Jones in CA at at E1 event was black carded.

    It's epee. That's the default mode if the touch you thought you made wasn't awarded. No ROW to hide behind.
     

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