Mask check question

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by Purple Fencer, Apr 26, 2008.

  1. D'Art

    D'Art Rookie

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    Ok, FF, I think it's probably time to either get some decent insults, or stop being an imbecile, and start being a useful member of the boards.
     
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  2. IvorDarcy

    IvorDarcy Rookie

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    Yes. You still suffer from "little man syndrome". You have nothing constructive to offer this forum so the only way you can TRY to be the big fish in the little pond is to insult anyone who challenges you. The insults only show your lack of education and limited grasp of intelligent discussion. As I stated earlier, grow up.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2008
  3. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    FF, Ivor, Telk......knock it off. Insults to absolutelyr notrhing to advance ANY of your arguments.

    Yes, I called one guy in this thread an idiot....but that was only after much frustration in the thread, and it's about the oiny time I have doine so on this board in the years I've been on...I cerrtainy don't START with the stuff you've all been spewing in almost every post recently.
     
  4. fatfencer

    fatfencer Podium

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    Ivor, telk, et al

    Hey buddy, you started it with me. I have a creed... give better than I get. You want to insult me? Expect boatloads in kind. It's the internet, but don't think for a moment I wouldnt say this to you in person. I travel often enough to Cali; come give it a try the next time I'm out there.

    I don't know you, don't need to know you, but I will treat you how you treat me. That goes for everyone. I'm more than happy to discuss things with people even if we vehemently disagree. The moment you become insulting I start fondling your mother again.

    Simple enough?

    Fatfencer
     
  5. telkanuru

    telkanuru Podium

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    I'm only insulting one of the people I'm arguing with, and since he contributes nothing meaningful to the discussion anyway, it's not that big a loss.

    I would appreciate your opinion on the points I've raised, however.
     
  6. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Post 'em again...I don't feel like wading through several pages of infantile postings right now.
     
  7. HDG

    HDG Podium

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    He was basically posing the "where do you draw the line?" question: if safety demands it at every tournament, why not every event you fence at a tournament; why not before every round; why not before every bout; why not before every point?
     
  8. fatfencer

    fatfencer Podium

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    Hdg

    They call that 'slippery slope' btw.

    So how in your daily life do you answer for yourself that slippery slope arg. You can ask that question on any topic imaginable. the answer is always the same. No matter how hard you try to avoid it, or carefully you hope to avoid someone screaming 'fallacy' at the top of their lungs in a post, it ends up being a function of reasonability.

    To define reasonability, which is key btw to avoid fallacy in args, is important.
    It's a combination of life experience(armorer general knowledge), specifically related factoids(FIE manufacturing standards, mesh thickness, using a punch correctly, rulebook), how troublesome it is (using a gabarit before every touch), outside force/law compels (2006 rulebook).

    The combination of the above is one common way to define reasonable: prudent, just, fairly applied, etc.

    You could change your underwear once an hour, but you don't right? Why? Because its UN-reasonable. It may be reasonable in your mind, but the vast majority of people who wear underwear don't likely change their underwear hourly. Please don't ask me for data on this. I won't supply the money for a study, nor do we need a study. It is enough to say that the 'common man' would define this to be unreasonable.

    Incidentally it IS a fallacy to say that because a slippery slope exists, the current status quo is prima facie incorrect. People have said throughout the thread that since we have no data we should punch test even between touches, as if to say that if that's absurd, then so is testing at every tournament. To say so using this slippery slope is to deny the need at all. All punch testing, at any time is EQUALLY fallacious then. So to argue a finer parsing and then say it is absurd is, unfortunately, incorrect.

    Again, to say that until 'someone can justify to me why we shouldn't test every touch I won't believe that testing at every tournament is reasonable' is not only flawed thinking logically, but it denies what armorers, in their experience, have shared on the thread.

    Why? well, because we have data throughout the thread that shows punch testing FOUND potentially deadly things in masks. Specificity outweighs the general theory of the slippery slope.

    Fatfencer
     
  9. HDG

    HDG Podium

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    I'm not asking the question; I'm repeating it at Purple's request.
     
  10. telkanuru

    telkanuru Podium

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    TL;DR

    You're making data up.
    The data you are looking for doesn't exist.
    Hearsay isn't data.
     
  11. IvorDarcy

    IvorDarcy Rookie

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    Mr fat fencer, when exactly did I insult you? I made an observation, nothing more. You want to be the big fish in the small pond which is pretty obvious to see. You are right and everyone else is wrong. When anyone dares to disagree with you then you resort to childish name calling.
    This is a DISCUSSION forum and not a pissing contest.
    Also, just because my profile says I am in California it does not make it true. You also assume I am male.
    Try actually having a discussion that makes sense, without any insults and maybe someone will bother to read your posts. Stop trying to be the center of attention. I think it has already been established that "common sense" dictates that a punch test at every competition is prudent not only for the continuing safety of fencers but for some protection against law suits should anyone be injured due to a failure of a mask. Note that I said "SOME" protection against law suits because there will always be the argument of "well if it passed the punch test, how could it fail during the bout?"
    Mr fat fencer, if you feel my observations of you were an insult to you then please accept my sincere apologies. I simply called it how I saw it. Feel free to continue to act childish and insulting towards anyone who disagrees with you.
    One more thing. You are the first so-called "Christian" I have met who treats people with total disrespect. Very sad indeed.
    My last post in this thread. ( Yes, my last. Not my last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last thread). remind you of anyone?
     
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  12. fatfencer

    fatfencer Podium

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    An armorer stating what he saw isnt hearsay its expert testimony.

    ff
     
  13. fatfencer

    fatfencer Podium

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    Comments interspersed

    Fatfencer
     
  14. D'Art

    D'Art Rookie

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    Hmm, and I thought we might be getting somewhere. :rolleyes:

    Or should that be :darwin:?
     
  15. telkanuru

    telkanuru Podium

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    Do the words "statistically significant" mean anything to you?
     
  16. fatfencer

    fatfencer Podium

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    only if you remember

    that I'm an MBA finance and that statistical modeling was a core part of what i did for a living for 10 years.

    oh, and btw: statistics lie.

    And Frankly I find even one, YES one case of a death avoided to be VERY statistically significant. Consider that one death and the corresponding lawsuit would be quite catastrophic to USFA finances...yes one death can be quite the impact.

    Statistically insignificant? Perhaps, but if we define further just what statistic it is then perhaps its not as much as you believe.

    Moreover, the impact of an accident occurring is quite large, the impact on a life not marred by permanent injury or death is also quite large.

    Some statistics can be quite small seeming but have enormous consequences.

    Take being forced to have sex, using a condom, with an Aids patient. If it doesnt break you'll live and even have an orgasm. Condoms breaking if used correctly with non petroleum based lube is quite statistically insignificant... but I dont see anyone lining up to bone an Aids patient. Why? The impact is large and monstrously ginormous.

    Intersting and very applicable metaphor.

    Fatfencer
     
  17. academe

    academe DE Bracket

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    No, math is pure, powerful, beautiful and full of truthiness. Only people that manipulate and mislead with statistics are liars...:)
     
  18. hologramqueen

    hologramqueen Rookie

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    Im gathering what this is all boiling down to is that we really do need the mask punch test at the local and regional levels.. Some people use the same masks at practice day in and day out, then when they do a local or regional and it could easily fail.. There is a reason you wear a mask and protective clothing, its to keep you safe.. Would you drive a car that might have faulty breaks 100mph down a hill towing a trailer without getting them checked?
     
  19. telkanuru

    telkanuru Podium

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    No, but if I got the brakes checked two months ago, I'd be perfectly alright towing that trailer at 100 mph.

    Again, there is NO data to suggest the optimal frequency of testing for safety vs. convenience. This is something that can be relatively easily done with a basic materials science lab, and it really should be.

    I, personally, test my mask about once a month. I don't know if this is more often than I need to, or less often. It's just what's convenient for me.

    All we have is hearsay evidence from a small handful of (well trained) individuals which is not even close to representative (and one untrained inexperienced individual making up stories).
     
  20. fatfencer

    fatfencer Podium

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    These armorers probably test thousands of mask per year. What is soooo unrepresentative? You, given the same 'inexperience' you allege I possess are what's unrepresentative. Your limited fencing expertise doesn't oblige you to opine with any authority. The best you can come up with is the idea that you think a lab testing is necessary to determine 'optimal frequency' (slippery slope) otherwise, in your mind, there is NO correlation. Again a fallacy, not being able to quantify doesn't mean it doesnt exist or that there are negative impacts to be avoided. The negative impacts are justification enough to test at least on a per tourney basis, especially since the test is easy, can be done by most anyone after very little training, and has really no quantifiable detriment to the mask according to Peter G., who apparently is an expert on metallurgical stuff.

    Even if none of them can agree on exactly how many times and justify it with quantifiable data, at least 2 on this thread agree that a per tourney basis is correct, based on their years and years of experience and training. Not statistically insignificant by any means.

    So, based on all of the above:

    1) your lack of experience in armory compared to those who've weighed in
    2) the ease of mask punch testing
    3) negative impact of not testing
    a) possibly letting someone use a mask that won't protect = death or permanent injury
    b) legal costs associated with neglect

    how is it that you can claim that a lack of a 'study' EQUALS a complete dismissal of the need to punch test on a per tourney basis. You've chimed in all along with many of the naysayers so don't backpedal now. Think carefully about your answer in light of the fact that you test more times a year than the average USFA member does. 12 times. Thats equivalent to one tourney a month. WHY? Why? Why? Acoording to you and the other naysayers, theres no study so there really isn't any value to quantify, so thusly theres no value at all.

    Can't have it both ways. Remember testing IS more safe logically, even if there isn't mathematical data to prove. Try and prove your assertion that Punch testing isn't more safe than not punch testing. I'd like to see how that proofs out.

    FF


    PS:

    Sometimes 'studies' don't justify much more than their own funding...and usually not even that.
     

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