Lots of mask failures And other fun stuff from this last weekend

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by ktinoue3, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    11
    Worked the armory table this weekend at the SYC at Rain City Fencing Center in Bellevue, WA this last weekend. Between the other armorer and I we failed a mask for just about every reason I know of.
    Mask punch failure, failing welds, bibs detaching, and missing rivets.
    I had two questions/clarifications that I wanted to check on.

    For a bib that is becoming detached, is gluing it back on an adequate fix? We didn't feel that would hold up well enough.

    For missing rivets on the mask securement device: We saw two different types, On the all star mask the top rivet pulled through. One it fails a mask punch due to the big hole. two if fails since the one of the securement device is not up to factory spec. Does that sound right? I got a lot of argument back from a coach and would like to be able to better articulate why I won't pass the mask.
    The other rivet failure was a missing rivet for the top velcro which attaches to the contour mask strap on a leon paul x-change mask. Since the velcro was only held on by one rivet instead of the two we failed for the securement device is not up to factory spec.

    On to the best failure of the weekend. I was checking a lame the back showed very high resistance around the name. thinking it was just too much paint I went to sand it off when larger pieces started peeling off. What it looks like happened was that someone used a heat transfer to put the name on the back of the lame and never removed the transfer sheet. It looks like it might have been left under the heat press for too long. Apparently it passed at multiple events that way before being failed at the last one. Was able to get off enough for it to conduct again.
     
  2. St.Meow

    St.Meow Made the Cut

    Joined:
    May 22, 2015
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    6
    I'd put the glue thing under the "not significantly robust" category if you choose to fail it. Considering sewing is possible, cheap, and convenient enough, I wouldn't feel too bad about that. At an SYC for foil, I might be disinclined to fail that though. Gloves are allowed to glue down catching hazards, so I'd personally think it is a fine fix for that.

    The rivets being missing would likely fail to me under the same sentiment as the elastic being stretched out. If the rivets have failed on one of the mechanisms for retention, then it's more likely for the other to fail. This I would be more stringent on, especially with kids.
     
  3. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    16,092
    Likes Received:
    544
    I'd have to see the bib issue to make a decision on gluing.

    As for the rest...so long as you KNOW you're on solid ground re the reason for rejecting the item, stick to your guns.

    Matters of safety are NOT open to negotiation, especially where the mask is concerned...a missing top rivet IS a no-pass.
     
    ktinoue3 likes this.
  4. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    55
    They should be allowed to glue. You evaluate the result. There is no specified method of attachment, only that it be sufficiently robust.

    Top rivet having gone through the mesh (and the accompanying hole) is a big fail. If the coach asks why, do a punch test on the area. That mask should have been rendered visible unusable as it is definitely not safe.

    For USFA, there is no "not up to factory spec" reason of failure. Masks are no homogulated. You have to evaluate the fastening systems as presented and explain why it is failed. If the single rivet is secure, you probably should have passed that. IIRC some of the early contour designs did only have one top rivet. If it's not secure, then of course it should be failed.
     
  5. Mergs

    Mergs Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2000
    Messages:
    3,513
    Likes Received:
    216
    I would have to see the mask re the bib. I would not accept gluing as an acceptable repair if it is becoming detached. When the mask is presented, it must be complete, i.e. all components, to include rivets and protective bands, are required to be present. A mask can be rejected, not failed, for this. The difference between failed and rejected is that a fail is for a problem that cannot be reasonable fixed - fail punch test, broken welds, and broken tongue. In this case per m25.f.7 the mask is confiscated, visibly marked as failed and if requested returned to the fencer at the end of the tournament. A reject is for a problem that can be reasonably fixed - dead spot on the lame material, missing rivet, torn bib, etc.

    That said, I would like to modify IFV's comment, yes, there is a 'not up to factory spec' reason to reject, not fail, a mask. I just had the US SEMI clarify this regarding missing rubber that covers the welds on LP masks. Their position is that all components must be present when the mask is presented for inspection.
     
  6. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    145
    The top rivet on top of the mask can be hard to replace since it's generally longer than the other rivets. The best source I've been able to find for a replacement is available from BuckleGuy.com.

    BTW, two years ago, I failed two Allstar masks at the Long Beach FIE Foil for missing the top rivets. Fortunately, Matthew Porter had a couple of long rivets from Uhlmann in his tool case that I was able to repair the masks with.

    https://www.buckleguy.com/rv1115-do...st-15mm-nickel-matte-solid-brass-100-per-bag/

    Surprisingly, I fix more LP X-Change masks for loose trim pieces than anything else. Most times, it's a quick fix with a glue gun. However, I prefer to use Goop glue to do a better repair if I have the time (at least 2 days to let the mask air out). If I have to replace the rubber band entirely, 3M automotive double backed adhesive trim tape is my recommendation.

     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  7. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    16,092
    Likes Received:
    544
    And how much screaming about it did you get about it? (if the fencers were German, Italian, Russian, or French, that is)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  8. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    3,731
    Likes Received:
    548
    I'd be pretty pissed off if an armorer who was testing one of my masks destroyed it for a missing rivet or oversized rivet hole.
     
  9. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    16,092
    Likes Received:
    544
    That's probably the same type of guy to uses the probe to TRY to fail the mask.

    As Mergs said, a rejection can be fixed -- all of us have done it. A true failure can't be repaired.
     
  10. Mergs

    Mergs Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2000
    Messages:
    3,513
    Likes Received:
    216
    So would I, since it isn't a failure. And even it was, the armorer shouldn't destroy a mask unless it was abandoned by the owner, i.e. didn't pick it up after the tournament. IMHO, if an armorer stomps a mask flat prior to that, like in front of the fencer at the time of inspection, that armorer just bought the fencer a new mask regardless of its condition. Nowhere is it stated or implied that anyone has the authority to destroy personal property.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  11. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    145
    The fencer was Italian, but wasn't a member of the national team. He was concern, but understood the situation. I told him that we could fix the masks and not to worry. Fortunately, I work with Matthew quite often and knew that he had the longer double cap rivets in his tool case. I fixed both masks in about 5 minutes and the fencer was a happy camper.
     
  12. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    11
    Unfortunately I did not grab a picture. Two of them were BG style masks with the bib attached to the rubber band. The stitching that held the bib and band to the mask had failed.
     
  13. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    11
    Thank you for the note on failure vs rejection. That makes a lot of sense.
     
  14. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    16,092
    Likes Received:
    544
    Lucky you. When I worked that pentathlon world cup in 09, the very first weapon to hit me at the gabrit was from a French competitor. Failed the length check (barely. but a fail's a fail).

    I handed the epee to her and explained that it was too long. Her coach went off: "This blade FIE...mean it pass!"

    Me: "Doesn't fall into the slot...means it fails."

    I'm gonna pass a failed weapon with Dan standing next to me??

    He showed them how to correct the issue and it passed. Ran into that quite a few times, as I recall.

    Dan had the best answer when he'd take a weapon for the electrical check and see 2 nice long tails of wire coming off the sockets....he'd break them off and hand it back saying "Fixed your switch for you."
     
  15. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    145
    Back in the '70s and '80s, we used to do a complete weapons check at Nationals. Many people used Russian epee and foil blades because they were cheaper and lasted a lot longer. Unfortunately, the Russian blades sometimes had a stubby short tips on them. People would usually throw away the Russian tips (horrible piece of crap) and rewire the blades with a French or German tip. The end result was that the blades were now longer by about 3mm to 5mm too long and would fail the garbrit check. Those were the days.....
     
  16. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,600
    Likes Received:
    167
    Gabarit.
     
  17. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    145
    I stand corrected. I'm an engineer, I'm not suppose to be able to spell.
     
    Goldgar likes this.
  18. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    11
    Wait are you saying that if the rubber band or the back rubber on a leon paul mask is missing that it must be rejected?
     
  19. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    145
    If the LP X-Change mask is missing any of its trim, the trim is loose on the mask, or if the rubber band is showing major cracks along its length, then it should be rejected. That would be both the front rubber band covering the weld seams joining the front portion of the mask and the side and the rear grommet type trim covering the rear edge of the mask.

    https://www.leonpaulusa.com/replacement-rubber-band-for-x-change-mask.html

    I'm not sure that Leon Paul sells the rear grommet trim by itself. You can probably find something similar at McMaster-Carr.

    https://www.mcmaster.com/#grommets/=1cnmi2a
     
  20. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    11
    Good to know. I had been told that if they are loose they can be removed as they were only for atheistic aesthetic purposes.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018

Share This Page