Is this common with Absolute Foil Tips?

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by ktinoue3, Apr 5, 2018.

  1. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    11
  2. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    2,924
    Likes Received:
    183
    I've found they screw back on. A drop of locktite (not in the barrel) helps to hold them for a while longer.
     
  3. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    11
    Seems like it would be better just to replace the tip. FWF tip worked just fine.
     
  4. Fairfield_Fencing_Armory

    Fairfield_Fencing_Armory Made the Cut

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2017
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    8
    I consider it a manufacturing defect. I even heard that they come in batches. I throw them out. They usually fall apart on strip and I lose the pieces anyway.
     
    jfarmer likes this.
  5. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    16,203
    Likes Received:
    561
    It can happen with any foil tip. (Btw....get the next gen tips...NOT the original, V2, or "belgian" ones...trust me on this.

    This is fixable, however.

    Put the collar back in place, screw the flange back down (nipple end facing away from the tip), and then either glue as Jeff suggested, or...

     
  6. neevel

    neevel Armorer

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2000
    Messages:
    3,315
    Likes Received:
    298
    Yes, I've found it to be common. With French tips, is could be fixed with a center punch or nail-set, since the end flange was swaged on to begin with. With the Absolute tips, that doesn't work as well. The threaded shaft is harder and so doesn't deform when you strike it to peen the flange back on.
    The basic problem is that the end flange is of too soft a metal, so the threading on it gets worn or deformed quickly. FWF and Uhlmann/Allstar tips will sometimes do this too, but it's much less common since they use a steel for the flange and collar instead of the brass that Absolute is using.

    Loctite doesn't seem to hold up for too long if you screw the flange back on, and it's easy to use too much of it and create an insulating barrier between the flange and the shaft (which means the end of the tip will not have continuity to the B line, and so touches you make on your opponent's lame will register off target). Just replacing the tip is the best solution.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
    ktinoue3 likes this.
  7. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    11
    I have been ordering only the new tips or ones that come with the extra points.
     
  8. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,617
    Likes Received:
    154
    Also with Allstar/Uhlman screwless.
     
  9. posineg

    posineg Made the Cut

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    9
    Another note on screwing the Flange back on. I have encountered a few that had the thread cut lower than the collar hight. After screwing the Flange back on, I found that I had pinned the collar and always completed the circuit. Make sure you leave enough travel to open the circuit.

    Unless you peen the flange in place, they just want to unscrew.
     
  10. fenceart

    fenceart Made the Cut

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Not that I'm glad to see other tips unscrewing, but I thought it was more rare. All of a sudden at our club this unscrewing thing has been happening. I didn't ever remember seeing this; not as if I've been around fencing equipment for as long as many of you probably have, nor seen as much as an armorer, nevertheless, it has only begun to happen here. Let's say during the previous 8 years at club I don't think I ever saw a tip unscrew. I thought it was because people constantly spin the tip when they hit off target or adjust their weapon; but then I still thought it was odd that it unscrewed. Well, now I know. And those little parts - I can't even think about gluing or reattaching any other way. Yikes.
     
  11. Emfuser

    Emfuser DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 1999
    Messages:
    547
    Likes Received:
    27
    For FWF parts the 'Extra' is the barrel, not the tip. The 'Extra' is reference to the thickness of the barrel vs a standard German design. The FWF tips you're using in that barrel are their standard tip, which is their only tip design for all of their German-style parts. The one tip they have for French-style parts is labeled as such. Talk to your foil coach if this is confusing. He'll set you straight.
     
  12. neevel

    neevel Armorer

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2000
    Messages:
    3,315
    Likes Received:
    298
    It's due to the Absolute points having come on to the market and become the standard point for their foils. As I noted above, their choice of materials makes it a much more common issue than it is with German tips. Hopefully they'll change materials for their next production run. It may even be a case of their manufacturer having changed materials under their nose after providing prototypes made of a better type of metal. That's not an uncommon problem with manufacturing in China, and if you're having stuff made there you really need to closely watch the actual production items coming back instead of just assuming that the prototype or pilot run will be exactly what you'll be getting when volume production starts.
     
  13. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ok I know the tip design is the same and works interchangeably between the 3 german style points . The "Belgian" point parts are not cross compatible. Do you know the Next Gen Tip that Purple fencer is referring to if not the FWF tip.
     
  14. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    16,203
    Likes Received:
    561
    The NextGen tip IS an FWF. The Absolute version came out later. It's a touch thinner than the FWF NextGen, which leaves the screw heads a little bit exposed...a prime reason why I stick with the FWF version.
     
  15. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,524
    Likes Received:
    140
    Guys, can I interject here for a moment!

    I think that you're actually in violent agreement here, but having difficulties due to symantics. For the sake of those whe aren't familiar with the details of foil parts, it might help to refer to the entire assembly which screws onto the end of the barrel as "the point", the hollow cylindrical portion that actually screws onto the end of the blade as "the barrel" and the smaller portion which fits into (and slides within) the barrel as "the tip". Add to that the tip screws, spring and wire and you have a complete point.

    Using those terms, the FWF NextGen or Xtra point consist of a standard German tip, spring, tip screws and wire, and a special barrel with walls roughly twice as thick as those of a standard German barrel (hence the term "extra"). Since this barrel has the same inside diameter as a standard German barrel it is compatability with existing German parts. The thicker barrel wall is significantly more resistant to denting than standard German barrels, and also allows more of the tip screw to be recessed into the barrel, thereby addressing two of the most common problems with traditional German foil points - sticking due to dented barrels and heads of tip screw heads getting mashed up enough to where they are almost impossible to remove. The downside is that the barrel weighs more than a standard barrel.

    The problem of the flange unscrewing from its post is strictly related to the tip, and is independent of the barrel, be it standard or extra.

    I will now slink back into the shadows and allow you to continue on with your discussion.
     
  16. Emfuser

    Emfuser DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 1999
    Messages:
    547
    Likes Received:
    27
    Based on the context I believe the "Extra" tips are the next-gen tips he is referring to. See what @SJCFU#2 wrote above. Definitely stay away from the "Belgian" (American colloquialism) parts. Those tips are trash.

    Summarized, there are three types of barrels available for the "German" design: The "standard" barrel is just the base barrel sold by Uhlmann, Allstar, FWF, and Absolute. The most common problems with these was denting of the barrel which would bind the tip or damage to the screws that would prevent their removal. Next up is the hardened version of the standard barrel, which has a sort of brown color. This is the same thickness as the standard barrels, but made of a stronger alloy that resists denting. Still has the protruding screws. The third variety is the thick-walled version, which is only made by FWF, called "Extra" when purchased in the US and is described above quite well. It's easy to get confused with names because the names used in US vendor sales aren't always the same as what the manufacturer actually calls them.

    A newer design from Uhlman and Allstar is their screw-less design, which is what I now use and am going to convert my household to. Uhlmann calls theirs "LUX" (<--link) and Allstar calls theirs "ULTRA", but they're exactly the same parts. This design features a tip plunger assembly which is screwed into the top of the barrel. It uses the same springs as the other German designs. All you need for assembling or servicing this tip design is a pair of 5mm open-end wrenches. I've been using them for close to two years and have only managed to damage one tip assembly, which I simply swapped out in a couple minutes.
     
    SJCFU#2 likes this.
  17. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    11
    Got to love the english language. Even when reading it is easy to misinterpret.
     
  18. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,524
    Likes Received:
    140
    Even moreso when conversing with technical jargon that may or may not be universally recognized (but yes, English does leave a lot to be desired as a means of clear and concise communication).
     
  19. jfarmer

    jfarmer DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    37
    Most of our club foils are equipped with Absolute French points and I have a box full of ones that the end peen has given way. I'm debating on switching over time to German points, but still working out which and how.
     
  20. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    16,203
    Likes Received:
    561
    It’s looking like they went back to screwing the flanges on. Peening the tips as an standard deal might be something I need to return to.
     

Share This Page