How some foil referees break rules

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by Malicia, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. posineg

    posineg DE Bracket

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    True, you personally never said that and I was just surmising what you wrote. The previous fencers in that timeframe were frustrated about the late parry, developed a absence of blade to counter this. Why do absence of blade, to make it harder for the late parry to parry-repost before the initial attack landed, or that is the way I interpreted your explanation.
     
  2. posineg

    posineg DE Bracket

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    Caught me using absolutes :oops: that is my bad.
     
  3. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    I think you need to go through and re-read what I wrote. It's not the late parry that is the problem, but early sweeping parries that lead to the strong absence of blade attacks, though there is a "chicken and egg" issue here when deciding just what the driving force was that lead us down the path to the current interpretation of foil actions. The rise of the "thrown" or "flick" attacks probably preceded the practice of early parries, or, at least, that was my observation about foil in the early 1980s to the 1990s. However, I"m basing that on my limited exposure to international fencing at that time, since there was only limited video of high-level competitions available.

    At any rate, all of these threads don't seem to have gotten anywhere, and I'm quite done with them.
     
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  4. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

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    I remember a fencer as far back as 1970 whose ‘signature’ move was a huge sweeping counter 6 that he’d finish with essentially a flick hit; just a big enveloping circle.
    He’d use it as either a parry and riposte OR as an attack.

    So it’s hardly new.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  5. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    World Championships (Wuxi) Team Finale 2018 : Video (21min51sec) - Case n°19
    [​IMG]
    The referee has said : Attack from left fencer. Fencer on the right has asked the video, and the referee has confirmed : Attack from left fencer.

    Article t83-2-a : "The simple attack, direct or indirect, is correctly executed when the straightening of the arm, the point threatening the valid target, precedes the initiation of the lunge or the flèche."

    [​IMG]
    Fencer on the right : straightening + threatening + flèche = Attack
    Fencer on the left : no straightening + no threatening + no lunge no flèche = no Attack

    Fencer on the left has'nt any priority when he was hitted : t83-2-d "Actions, simple or compound, steps or feints which are executed with a bent arm, are not considered as attacks but as preparations, laying themselves open to the initiation of the offensive or defensive/offensive action of the opponent"

    Fencer on the left has 10cm of the blade in the belly, then, afterward, he has reacted (counter attack).

    The referee has broken the rule.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  6. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    The ref may be believe Right is not executing a fletch and applying t.84.4, "Contiguous steps forward, with the legs crossing one another, constitute a preparation and on this preparation any simple attack has priority."
     
  7. Michael Comte

    Michael Comte DE Bracket

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    If the referee believes right is not executing a fleche, what is left executing to get the call? Those very small steps with bent arm, this is the attack?
     
  8. sdubinsky

    sdubinsky DE Bracket

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    yes, exactly! I knew you'd get it eventually, I'm so proud of you!
     
  9. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    Nobody need to read rules to understand that left fencer is just stamping one's feet : he 's not attacking.
    [​IMG]
    Fortunaltly, thanks to official rules (art t83-d technical rules), we all know (execept the referee) that he's preparing when he 's been hitted.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. sdubinsky

    sdubinsky DE Bracket

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    slow attacks are still attacks, not even your proposed rule changes wanted to change that.

    Actually, that first gif is perfect. You can clearly see his arm start to straighten as fotr's blade comes into frame, before contact is made. Makes it a clear case of stop hit not in time.
     
  11. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    Absolutely.
    The attack has a beginning and a end. Read article t83-2-a : "The simple attack, direct or indirect, is correctly executed when the straightening of the arm, the point threatening the valid target, precedes the initiation of the lunge or the flèche".
    First, you have to straight the arm...!
    But the fencer on the left is already hitted with his bent arm :
    [​IMG]

    But in fact, the real proble is that you don't seem to know what is the notion of priority.
    The priority is for the fencer who is attacking first. Fencer on the right has begun first the attack : straightening of the arm, the point threatening
    [​IMG]
    Art. 83-1 : "Every attack, that is every initial offensive action, which is correctly executed must be parried or completely avoided and the phrase must be continuous — that is to say, co-ordinated."
    So, fencer on the left should parry or avoid. He has prefered to counter-attack : he's wrong.
    Priority to the right, attack from the right, point for the right.

    But the referee has broken the rules...
     
  12. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Michael Comte

    Michael Comte DE Bracket

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    Thank you.

    This is what Serguei Golubitsky describes here: "So there is a new way I would, call it new wave of a performing an attack. So basically it becomes marching and dancing on the spot."
     
  14. sdubinsky

    sdubinsky DE Bracket

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    Mal it says straightening, not straight.

    Mike, check this out:
    That's ya boy sergei scoring the exact sort of touch we're talking about. No complaints from him then!
     
  15. Michael Comte

    Michael Comte DE Bracket

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    I don't see where he is doing this little dance, can you tell the time?
     
  16. sdubinsky

    sdubinsky DE Bracket

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    Ah, sorry, I got your sock puppets mixed up.

    Are you arguing that slow attacks aren't attacks anymore? Because that's not supported in the rulebook anywhere.

    You never answered my question from before. Where have you fenced outside your club in the last twenty years?
     
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  17. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

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    :D:rolleyes:
     
  18. posineg

    posineg DE Bracket

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    Slow movement does not make a attack, nor does forward movement or any movement of the feet. What does make a attack is a extension.
     
  19. Michael Comte

    Michael Comte DE Bracket

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    Hi, I post only under my real name and never used any sock puppet, here or anywhere.

    I think the admin of this forum is able to check that and make you shut up if he has some honesty.

    I fenced I France, Germany, Singapore and Taiwan in the last 20 years, but I don't think this is the point here, you are making personal attack again, and we get far from the subject.

    What you call a slow attack is a fencer moving forward a few centimeters while staying in guard position (and a guard position with the arm very bent). His extension begins only when the opponent blade is hitting him.
    I maintain: this is ridiculously wrong to call that an attack, in fact it is no even a preparation.
     
  20. sdubinsky

    sdubinsky DE Bracket

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    Which part are you complaining about? The very bent arm position? I linked you a video of your hero doing that exact thing 20 years ago. The slow forward progress? There's nothing in the rulebook that says anything about the speed of the attack. The combination? Odd convention unsupported by the rulebook or really anything other than your own fertile imagination.

    Very odd, to say it's not even a preparation when the rulebook literally defines a preparation as "steps or feints executed with a bent arm". You should really read the rulebook sometime, it might clear things up.
     

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