How some foil referees break rules

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by Malicia, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    [​IMG]
    This thread is about the fact that those referee break rules. When the referee has said : attack from left, he has broken rules.
    What has done fencer on the right? Choose , both explanations (to give the point to fencer on the right) are quite interesting and are enough (you can react or not, that's your problem, but I'm not your puppet), so I repeat for everybody below (so everybody can judge if those explanations with official rules are serious).
    What you are asking for, your game, is about trivialities, while we are in front of a great scandal: those referees break official rules!
    And foil is ridicoulous
    [​IMG]

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    * Attack on preparation : art. t83-2-d "Actions, simple or compound, steps or feints which are executed with a bent arm, are not considered as attacks but as preparations"
    [​IMG]
    On left : bent arm on left, On the right : straightening of the arm + point threatenig valid target + lunge (quite small)

    * Stop hit made within a period of fencing time, i.e. ‘in time’ : art. t88 : "When compound attacks are made, the opponent has the right to stop-hit; but to be valid the stop hit must precede the conclusion of the attack by an interval of fencing time; that is to say that the stop hit must arrive before the attacker has begun the final movement of the attack".
    [​IMG]
    The hit of the fencer on the right has arrived before fencer on the left has begun the straightening of the arm.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  2. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

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    So you are not willing to answer the question of if you would call it an attack or a counter attack.
     
  3. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

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    looks like a Stop thrust to me
    whether you think it's an in time Stop or not is a matter of opinion
     
  4. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    Grand prix (Shangaï) female, semi-final 2019 : Video (2min00sec) - Case n°25
    [​IMG]
    The referee has said : Attack from fencer on the left (not valid).

    * Article t88 : "When compound attacks are made, the opponent has the right to stop-hit; but to be valid the stop hit must precede the conclusion of the attack by an interval of fencing time; that is to say that the stop hit must arrive before the attacker has begun the final movement of the attack."

    Fencer on the left has made a beat, and back in guard. Then, she was walking. When fencer on the left was walking, fencer on the right has made a stop hit before fencer on the left has begun to extend her arm - final movement.
    It's a stop hit made within a period of fencing time, i.e. ‘in time’.

    [​IMG]

    The referee has broken the rule.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  5. ChrisL

    ChrisL DE Bracket

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    Actually I'm not asking for trivialities or anything but if my question is simple then it should be simple to answer.

    I'm asking for your opinion of the action to better perceive your mindset and argument, it isn't unreasonable.
    You presented 2 scenarios, AiP or stop hit in time, for the priority of the action. You haven't said which you believe the action is.

    You also have not answered my rather simple question, which is related to the one above. Is this action, to you, an attack or a counterattack?

    A simple reply will suffice, I'm not discussing any of the other point in the thread here just asking a simple question which should be simple to answer.
     
  6. posineg

    posineg DE Bracket

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    Does not a Stop Thrust signify a Compound Attack? Are you saying that FotL was making a compound Attack? If that is the case, FotL clearly takes his tip off threatening and clearly pulls his elbow.
     
  7. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

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    that's what RIGHT sees it as, presumably, but whether the ref sees it that way is the issue.
     
  8. posineg

    posineg DE Bracket

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    I guess my point is that FotL is not even attacking, how can there be a Stop-Hit?
     
  9. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

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    So would you call what FotR does an attack?
     
  10. posineg

    posineg DE Bracket

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    Why not? FotR is attacking after FotL failed to.
    [​IMG]



    We have had all this discussion before about how the fencer needs to extend during his/her advance in order to have a valid attack. Clearly FotL is extending after there advance and after the FotR has attacked. If FotL was attacking, they should have extended while they were doing that hop type advance.
     
  11. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    Grand prix (Shangaï) female, semi-final 2019 : Video (3min32sec) - Case n°26
    [​IMG]
    The referee has said : Attack from fencer on the left.

    * Article t88 : "When compound attacks are made, the opponent has the right to stop-hit; but to be valid the stop hit must precede the conclusion of the attack by an interval of fencing time; that is to say that the stop hit must arrive before the attacker has begun the final movement of the attack."

    Fencer on the left has made a beat, and back in guard. When fencer on the left was back on guard, fencer on the right has made a stop hit before fencer on the left has begun to extend her arm - final movement.
    It's a stop hit made within a period of fencing time, i.e. ‘in time’.

    [​IMG]
    Maybe, we could say that fencer on the left has made a parry instead of a beat... But article t86 "The parry gives the right to riposte... must be executed immediately, without indecision or delay". Fencer on the right has came back in guard, so she has lost her left to riposte.

    The referee has broken the rule.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  12. Malicia

    Malicia Made the Cut

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    Official rules was understood, and applied, until...
    For example, in 1950.
    [​IMG]
    "In other words, an offensive action does not really constitue an attack until the arm has been straightened. This is a most important factor in the analysis, one which must always be kept in mind".

    It's not some interpretation of the rules, that's rules :
    Article t9-1 The attack is the initial offensive action made by extending the arm and continuously threatening the opponent’s target, preceding the launching of the lunge or flèche
    Article t83-2-a The simple attack, direct or indirect, is correctly executed when the straightening of the arm, the point threatening the valid target, precedes the initiation of the lunge or the flèche.
    Foil convention in rules hasn't change since 1950. Rules was logical and are still logical.

    Nowadays, some referees do the exact opposite! And that's not some interpretation, that's just opposite and that's breaking the official rules!!! And to make foil a non-sense.
     
  13. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    I found your problem!
    This is 2019, not 1950.
     
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  14. Grey Sabreur

    Grey Sabreur DE Bracket

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    In 1950 it wasn't a problem because referees followed the rule book. In 2019 it is a problem because they don't.
     
  15. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

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    Okay.
    So maybe you should be searching the internets for “how to build a time machine”
     
  16. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    This is the fight that never ends.
    Yes, it goes on and on my friends.
    Some people started fighting it, not knowing what it was,
    And they will go on fighting it forever just because...
     
  17. Grey Sabreur

    Grey Sabreur DE Bracket

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    You missed my point - Play according to the rule book or change the rule book to reflect what is the current reality!
     
  18. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    Then this should be brought up to the FIE Refs, or the USFA Cadre as a problem to be fixed there. Posting endless diatribes to an online forum (here, reddit, fb) gets you no where.
     
  19. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

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    Exactly. Also fencing to the way the refs do NOT make the calls, equally gets you nowhere.
     
  20. anton_fairfax

    anton_fairfax Made the Cut

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    Around and around we go...

    As is evident from this thread, Malicia et al don’t want the rule book changed. They want everyone to change how they fence/ref.
     

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