FST JEREBICNIK epee point

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by Purple Fencer, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    15,878
    Likes Received:
    512
    Ok...eval time on the Berlin epee point.

    Parts:

    Wire cup is a French style, so LP, Sport 7, or any common non-German wire will work. Was told by the vendor I bought it from that you could use a German if you snipped off the volcano tip.

    Overall weight of the point is 8 grams....comparable to a traditional FWF point.

    Weight spring: ARGH! I was taking the parts apart to wire it up and the spring went missing! Fortunately, I was able to take the exploded picture posted elsewhere, scale it up until the barrel on the pic was the same length as the real thing, and use the pic of the weight spring as a model to cut a German one down. Worked fine, although I needed to make sure the cut end of the spring sat against the wire block.

    Spacer and interior brass collar: I had some doubts as to the wisdom of this part of the design, as the spacer is the part pushing the weight spring down, but it worked out well. The end with the smaller hole goes against the spring, and it’s there to let the actual contact probe through to hit the wire contacts.

    The interior brass collar was there to stabilize the assembly...probably serves to support the plastic a bit as well. I can see nothing to indicate it has any other function.

    Washer: Lost it with the spring, but I ended up not needing it. If necessary, it would go into the spacer to put the tip a liiiillltle bit further away, effectively lengthening the contact stroke.

    Tip: Interesting design. What looks like a foil tip flange – where the spring would sit – actually looks a little larger inside, allowing the contact probe to project through when the tip is depressed. The small spring inside is merely a shock absorber. It is, therefore, NOT screwed to a post as Brtech thought. It looks like the small spring is glued to the back side of the flange to hold it together. Might be the same on the other side of spring as well.

    Tip at rest....you can see the contact probe deep inside the flange



    Tip pushed in to show the contact probe extendign out.



    The collar on the tip used a 7mm wrench...an 8mm would be too big. Standard 6mm flats on the bottom of the barrel.

    No problems wiring it up, although after losing the spring and washer I was a LOT more careful with the parts until I had the tip in.

    Given that the contact probe is solid, it’s very important to level the wire contacts...even more so than with a traditional tip, as the probe can’t move around like a spring can.

    Once it was installed, and the weapon assembled – now came testing.

    I opted for the most basic and easy to perform test....hitting the wall – a LOT -- and seeing how the sripside tests went.

    Sit down....hit the target wall 25 times right handed, then go left (french grip) and repeat....that way I got lots of different angles...especially left handed.

    Checked periodically....passes all tests....keep hitting.

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

    How many times? I counted....1000 hits...all of them solid ones wit the meter firing every time, as it was plugged into my Danbox.

    At the end of that, it STILL passed weight and both shims!

    The 1.5mm got a touch tight after hit 500 or so, but still well within passing, and inserting the gauge seemed to push it back up into proper position.

    The .5 was even better.

    I have a Negrini fan gauge, with feelers from 0.25mm to 0.6mm....it passed every one.

    Some damn fine engineering there....works as advertised.

    Will I carry it? Probably not....the cost is very high, and the parts are not compatible with more traditional points, so I’d probably have issues supporting it. It's also a bit complicated with easy to lose parts, and with no instructions on how to put it together. I was able to figure it out -- the exploded pic was a great help there -- but others might not be able to.

    If it was for my OWN weapons, tho?? Probably.
     
  2. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    196
    How is that a good thing? That sounds like the tip is travelling WAY too far to be useful. It should fail on the .35mm or .40mm gauge.
     
  3. bobb121

    bobb121 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    23
    It should fail on the .6mm not the .4mm
     
  4. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    15,878
    Likes Received:
    512
    It passed ALL of them....just wanted to emphasize that.

    When we talk about residual tip travel, we always focus on the contact spring, since it IS the part that moves a lot.

    However, aside from making sure the wire contacts are level,, we never discuss the effect of a lot of hits to THEM.

    With a contact spring, no real worries, as the spring itself absorbs the shock and it can't do a lot of damage.

    But a solid post -- even one cushioned by an interior spring -- is still a solid bit hitting the contacts. Bash those TOO hard, and you can drive them too deep into the block to meet the spring....I've done it in the past.

    The overall point here is that the point functioned properly and passed all strip tests after 1000 hit to the wall...no matter how you look at it, that's impressive.
     
  5. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    196
    Maybe this is semantics. Most people refer to failing a shim if the weapon registers with that shim inserted. With that terminology, it should fail any shim thinner than about .40mm and pass any shim thicker than .45mm. It should certainly not have the same result (pass or fail) for everything between .25mm and .6mm
     
  6. Fairfield_Fencing_Armory

    Fairfield_Fencing_Armory Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    1
    That is a lot of parts! I would imagine that most fencers would have have trouble keeping their weapons in order, especially since the pieces are so easy to lose. In fact, I'm quite sure that I would have trouble as well, even on a table. And stripside repairs? Fuhgeddaboudit!
    Unless, of course, it is so precise and durable that it never needs repair or adjustment? The pics make it look like it is finely machined. Does anyone have a long term study of it? Can you just "set it and forget it?"
     
  7. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    15,878
    Likes Received:
    512
    Unfortunately, as I lost the tiny washer, I can't check that....if I run across it today I'll try.

    Given that the average epee hit is 3 kilos (generally meaning a faster thrus,t i.e. less time to depress the tip). I don't see the extra fraction of a millimeter affecting the fencing of most fencers.

    At the very top? Probably yes. Someone relatively new who might be a C or less? No.
     
  8. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    15,878
    Likes Received:
    512
    Unknown to me at this time...maybe one of the more experienced armorers like Brian or Donald?

    However, I'd say still passing all strips tests after 1000 hits says something.
     
  9. olandrea

    olandrea Made the Cut

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    2
    I have a version made of super light titanium for several months and had no needs for repair or adjustment. Some fencers are known that had no repairs or adjustment for several years.
    The Titanium version is not on the market, it is special made for me so you can't buy it. At least for now.
     
  10. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    196
    I'm pretty sure it made a difference of a few touches per tournament for me when I was competing. That's a HUGE difference. My Schermasport tips were set between .40mm and .45mm and never wavered a bit.
     
  11. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    196
    The worst Chinese made tips that I've used would meet that standard. Not saying that the FST JEREBICNIK point isn't well made, just that 1000 hits isn't a great test overall.

    I still really appreciate you giving us a good first look at the tip though!
     
  12. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    15,878
    Likes Received:
    512
    Yeah...but my arms (mor specifically, my wrists) can only take so much, and I had class later.

    Still...1000 hits is FAR more than an epeeist is going to fire at a tournament....even if he wins EVERY bout 504 or 15-14 and starts in the 256 position in DEs (that's 14 total bouts if he's in a pool of 7...6 bouts in pool and 8 in DE...150 touches total...even drills with a coach throughout the day won't make up the additional 850).

    I've seen contact springs go out of spec after a single bout. That's the issue with a system that uses something that can move around during use. The FST point is fixed, which means it doesn't change by itself.

    No prob. I've already dropped a line to the coach of the team that used to use the Estoc points to see if he wants to go for one or two for a test drive...because if a high school team can't fail the point NO one can!

    My major concern with the FST point is that you can't adjust it to be longer....it's either wherever it sits or shorter if you use the washers.

    They can machine it to a VERY fine tolerance all they want, but they have no control over the contacts in the cup...if they're sitting a bit low for some reason -- say the cup is a teeeny bit shorter in height than normal -- and you can't adjust for a longer contact probe, you're kinda screwed if it doesn't reach.
     
  13. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    3,594
    Likes Received:
    458
    In general, the average hit strength doesn't tell us much about hits out on the extreme of the distribution without the width of the distribution, which is pretty wide, I think.

    Anyway, I'm not so sure it's correlated to level. I have some Div II kids who get a lot of touches with feathery light picks to the hand; they'd be very disadvantaged with a tip that passes at much more than .5, and indeed one of them is a fanatic about having her tips set up to be just exactly legal. OTOH, many top fencers never get touches like that, and probably wouldn't be affected at all; on the other other hand, some elite fencers probably would be affected. I'm really not convinced that knowing the mean hit strength tell us much at all.

    Man, you think? The main appeal for a solid post tip like this is that it holds its setting; this is IME unlike even some decent contact-spring tips. I have some LP and Sport-7 tips that seem to need tweaking every damn tournament. It's one of the things I liked about the zip tips, they held the contact spring great and didn't let it unwind itself down the post.
     
  14. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    15,878
    Likes Received:
    512
    Fixed that for you!
     
  15. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    196
    I agree entirely. I'm just saying that 1000 hits against a wall done lazily and checking that it still passes weight and shim is a pretty low standard. I generally needed to setup my FWF points about every 3-4 months when I was training and competing heavily, but that was to keep them fine tuned and smooth. When setup right with FWF contact springs, my LP and even cheap club tips would still pass weight and shim tests after a year of hard use. They might just barely register a touch, but they would pass. My Schermasport tips with a brass piston have never needed any maintenance besides replacing the rubber O-ring, and the two that I still have on surviving blades are 10 years old and still set to between .40mm and .45mm.
     
  16. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    15,878
    Likes Received:
    512
    Well, it wasn't like I had access to any proper testing equipment. I don;t even know what the testing protocol for tips is for homologaton...if there IS such protocol.

    I don't know that there IS a testing standard to shoot for in this case. In the meantime, 1000 hits at a variety of angles seems sufficient to prove the deign holds the travel.

    If someone DOES have access and wants to do a more formal test, I'll be happy to put another one together and send it out (we need the current one, as it's the only LH french grip epee in the club, and it DOES get used).

    Mergs? Brian? Bueller?
     
  17. olandrea

    olandrea Made the Cut

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    2
    Please don't forget that this system is used in Europe since 1995 and was 1997 FIE approved.
    It is nothing new for as in Europe. It is only new for you because it was never advertised outside of Europe. So it is a proved and working system. Mr Jerebicnik him self is an Austrian modern pentathlete. He competed at the 1972 Summer Olympics. I train every week with Olympic fencer and there opinion about the 0.5 or 0.45 /0.40 is that it has more of a psychological advantage. There is no prove that you wine more bouts with 0.45 /0.40 than with 0.5.
     
  18. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    3,594
    Likes Received:
    458
    Is someone in the US going to start carrying these?
     
  19. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Messages:
    15,878
    Likes Received:
    512
    I'm too small to afford them in any quantity. Maybe Gary?
     
  20. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Podium

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    196
    It wasn't a knock on you or your testing method, just that a single sample for a single day isn't a good representation of actual use. Olandrea has probably seen the tip in actual use for a long time and could tell us how well it holds travel.
     

Share This Page