Foil ROW and Point-in-Line

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by SirNug, Nov 23, 2017.

  1. SirNug

    SirNug Rookie

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    After the bout commences, the fencer on the left advances while the fencer on the right retreats. The fencer on the right establishes a point-in-line while the fencer on the left is hiding the blade with his/her arm pulled back. Then, the fencer on the left extends, then lunges and hits and the fencer on the right hits too with the fencer on the left landing into his/her blade. The fencer on the left did not make any blade contact with the blade of the fencer on the right and the whole time they the fencer on the left was advancing and the fencer on the right was retreating.

    Who would win that touch considering Right of Way? Wouldn't it be the fencer on the right's point because he/she extended first establishing a point-in-line?
     
  2. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    Rather than rehash this now familiar scenario, let me take a different approach.

    Quite a few years ago, a noted FIE referee and an international fencer were sitting in the stands watching a finals bout in foil. One fencer put out a line, and the opponent attacked. Two lights. The attacker was given the touch. A few actions later, the same thing happened with the same effect. The defender attempted to throw out a line, the opponent attacked, and the opponent got the touch.

    The referee finally turned to the fencer next to him and said: "Do you see what I see? Wasn't that a line from the defender?"

    The fencer shrugged and said: "Yes, but this referee never gives line."
     
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  3. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Point is for right. If properly established and the ref sees it, and presuming nothing ELSE happens to make Right lose the line (like breaking the line) PIL has complete priority over everything else...retreating does not change that.

    The key here is if Left was on the final attack before Right got the line established. The way you describe it, Left was still in preparation, therefore Right's PIL has priority and Right gets the touch.

    If, however, Left had started the lunge (the final attack) before Right got the line out, it would be Left's point because Right was too late.
     
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  4. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    If I take the text as written, sure. But only because the text says that FotR 'establishes point in line.' Honestly, most of the time this is attempted, the PiL is late. So probably not. Without video though, we're all just guessing.
     
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  5. dberke

    dberke Podium

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    For right's line to have priority, it has to have been established (and remain, unbroken for) at least one full tempo before left's attack begins. Based on what you've written, it's hard to tell - if one full tempo elapses between "The fencer on the right establishes a point-in-line while the fencer on the left is hiding the blade with his/her arm pulled back" and "then, the fencer on the left extends, then lunges" then it would probably be right's touch, but if left's action starts right after right puts out the line, then it's left's touch because the requisite tempo has not elapsed.

    As someone who uses point-in-line a fair amount (certainly more than most fencers), I can tell you that for a line to be valid, it usually feels like it's been out there forever - enough time that there is no doubt in the mind of the referee that it was established. Usually, to have that amount of time, you need to take a very big retreat while putting out the line so as to force the attacker to take an extra advance (and thus an extra tempo) before their attack starts.

    Dan
     
  6. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

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    If FOTR established PIL, it is their point. PIL has ultimate priority. Since you said they established PIL, then they did.

    Distance and context are really important here. Generally, to get a PIL call you need to establish it before your opponent makes the final step-and-lunge of their attack.
     
  7. SirNug

    SirNug Rookie

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    I see. Thank you for all the responses and sorry for the vague example. I couldn't quite find a good example of this situation. Also, I did mean that the fencer on the right established a point-in-line many tempos before the fencer on the left.
     
  8. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    Another thing to consider is that the line has to be held with the arm stationary in a high-line position and with no movement of the point except in response to an opponent's attempt to find the blade. If the fencer with the line wiggles the point with no searching on the opponent's part or flinches and breaks the arm to any degree when the attacker finishes, the line is likely be considered as having been abandoned or not correctly established.
     
  9. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    To complicate: Having established line, FoR drops it and attacks. FoL's attack has been continuous. What then?
     
  10. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    Didn't you just answer your own question?
     
  11. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    If literally happening as you describe:

    1. FoR has proper point in line.
    2. FoL starts attack.
    3. FoR moves arm away from a proper in-line position and starts an attack.
    4. FoL finishes attack
    5. FoR hits.

    the touch is for FoL. FoR's line ceases to exist when the arm is moved from a proper in-line position, and FoR's attack is a new action that starts after FoL's attack and hence is not in proper time to gain priority. However, if FoR lunges while maintaining the arm in proper line position (a different situation than what you describe) then the line is still extant and has priority.
     

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