Fencer Excluded

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by DLEE, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    An A4 also needs12 A fencers in the event. There were 12 As in the event at the start, but one of the As got the black card.
     
  2. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Ah I see that now, thanks :)

    But even if she hadn't been carded out, does the C in the top 12 still negate the A4?
     
  3. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    No. The requirements include 4 As in the top 8 and 4 Bs (or higher) in the top 12. Those requirements were met even without the black carded fencer's A.
     
  4. CluelessFencingMom

    CluelessFencingMom Rookie

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    Fair enough. I haven't seen anything compelling to justify the rule's impact on non-offending fencers.
     
  5. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    I was splitting the As in the top 8 away from the ratings required in 9-12, like, 1-8 is section 1, 9-12 is section 2, no overlap. Do the As in the top 8 also count towards the ratings requirement in 9-12?
     
  6. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    The requirement is for in the top 12, not specifically for in places 9-12.
     
  7. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Right on, thanks.
     
  8. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Some extended background info on the board at that time, that motion and other related ones could be helpful here towards understanding reasons members voted against it. But those subjects would take far more typing than I have time for at the moment.

    Along with looking for "anything compelling to justify the rule's impact on non-offending fencers", people should be thinking about how and why the rule they want to modify came about in the first place. It's an example of a "bright-line rule". What problems did/does it solve? What issues does it avoid by virtue of being a bright-line rule? Why did the TC come up with (or was given) the rule?

    What happens if you change it from a bright-line rule and tell people they can appeal to the TC and the TC is supposed to investigate and then possibly apply some sort of balancing tests? What exactly would that investigation entail? What would those balancing tests be? How would it all work? Not just for the specific case you care about, but all the cases and possible circumstances. What type of burden would that put on the TC and staff? Is that the best use of limited TC and staff time for the USFA?

    Also look at the rule again and note that it refers to "classifications and/or qualifications". I recall people back around the time of the motion were somewhat more up in arms about various unfortunate "impacts on non-offending fencers" that black card / exclusions could have on qual spots vs on classifications. Fencers who missed out on a classification change would have future opportunites at other events to get those classifications. (And if they couldn't achieve that at some point in the future was not awarding it to them at the event in question really a major issue?) But heaven help everyone subject to the drama involved when, say, an exclusion at a division qualifier reduced the number of qual spots available and thereby someone's darling daughter got bumped out of qualifying for Y14WS in her final year of Y14 eligibility.

    Now some might be thinking that fencers being black carded for bad behavior at qualifiers across the country was pretty infrequent and those that affected qual spots and/or classifications rarer still and they'd be right. However, again that was black card for fencer misbehavior. Black cards / exclusions to perfectly behaved fencers at quals was shockingly frequent and that often could affect the number of qual spots.

    How did that happen? Well, these were exclusions after the event ended when it was determined that the organizer and/or division allowed ineligible fencer(s) to compete in the event. While the fencers involved might have had perfect behavior, they were either not members of the division, not US citizens or LPRs, not age eligible, not classification eligible, or for whatever reason(s) not supposed to be fencing in the event.

    Ok, so that happened and far, far too often. Many divisions were absolutely horrible at checking and verifying what they were supposed to when running qualifiers. And the national office and TC folks were left to deal with all the fall-out from those stuff ups. So what exactly were the TC/NO supposed to do with all those messes? Not awarding classification changes and/or qual spots to ineligible/excluded fencers was obvious, but what to do about the "impacts on non-offending fencers" wrt to classifications and/or qual spots?
     
  9. Fences Gold Coast

    Fences Gold Coast Rookie

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    Absolutely legit.
    Agree with you.
     
  10. Le Chevalier de St. Croix

    Le Chevalier de St. Croix Rookie

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    For what's it's worth...

     
    CluelessFencingMom likes this.

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