Fencer Excluded

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by DLEE, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    My thought is once the event gets to the point where the group level is locked down, any black cards from that point on should have no effect on the other fencers. The other 7 or 11 (depending on the event size and strength) should not be punished for the gross failings of one fencer...they fought to get into that round where they'd earned that classification. The fact that one person in that group got black carded should not affect the others.

    If I legitimately fought my way to a C, I should not lose that C because someone ELSE screwed his/her own pooch.
     
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  2. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    I don't generally try to go "trolling", as far as I know. But I felt I could have said the same thing about your original response to me...so i guess trolling is the eye of the reader.
    My original point was toward the idea "why penalize other competitors for her bad conduct". Since our current tournament organization is designed in such a way that the an eliminated fencer also may have an effect on the classification of a tournament (and I did not read into the possibility of that getting changed), I read the comment as "don't black card someone if their loss from the tournament adversely affects the rest of the fencers". Maybe I took that a different way than everyone else, but it still seems unclear to me from the initial point that i quoted (though further quotes qualified that).
    So my further response to you ("no obvious incentive to correct said behavior") was still in line with my apparent misappropriated idea of "don't black card the fencer". I apologize for the confusion.
     
  3. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Around 9 years ago, the USFA Board of Directors discussed and voted on a motion that would modify the rule above to allow for people to appeal to the national Tournament Committee to request a review of the facts and circumstances of events in which the issuance of a black card in a competition resulted in either a reduction of the rating of a competition (either through the reduction in the number of fencers or through the reduction of rated fencers finishing at the appropriate levels of competition) or a reduction in the number of qualifiers generated.

    The Board voted the motion down. (The correct decision, IMHO)
     
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  4. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Not meant to be an equivalency, just an observation on the vagaries of earning a rating.
     
  5. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    I agree. Was there discussion?
     
  6. bbower

    bbower DE Bracket

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    So just to clarify. I'm an A in the final bout, losing 14-4 to my opponent who will earn her A if she scores one more point. I elect to tell my opponent and the referee to go die in a grease fire and am black carded. Now my opponent doesn't get her A.

    Could everyone who thinks this is fine please explain why?
     
  7. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Nobody thinks it’s fine, everyone thinks this hypothetical you is a douche, and it’s the rule. Try again to change the rule.
     
  8. bbower

    bbower DE Bracket

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    I guess i misinterpreted "I agree" which you posted 3 posts ago.
     
  9. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Tanking on purpose is bush league. That isn’t the situation we’re discussing, is it?
     
  10. CluelessFencingMom

    CluelessFencingMom Rookie

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    Why not? Looks like it's been quite some time since the USFA board debated this black card/event classification issue and there are some good arguments for revisiting the rule that have been expressed here. Whom does one contact at USA Fencing to get the ball rolling?
     
  11. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Happened in a local tournament.
     
  12. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Good question. I can give you some ideas (just be sure you don’t preface your request for review with “We were talking about this on fnet, and...”).

    You could try the Athlete Advisory Group, the Referees Commission, and the Board of Directors. It’s a start.
     
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  13. CluelessFencingMom

    CluelessFencingMom Rookie

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    I just checked the final results of the Anaheim junior women's saber event and there are two "B" fencers in the top 8 that presumably would have (should have) earned As. Perhaps this was a way to prevent those fencers from moving up in the ratings? I hadn't even considered how the black card could be played to intentionally harm other fencers in this manner.
     
  14. CluelessFencingMom

    CluelessFencingMom Rookie

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    I will try those avenues, thank you, and would appreciate any ideas/advice (is there DM on fnet?). This thread has several good arguments for why the rule should be revisited, so I'll definitely be using those. It might help to have additional examples from the last few years, whereby a fencer was black carded in a DE bout and the classification of the event dropped as a result. If you know of similar examples, please post to this thread with a link to the event results.
     
  15. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    None of the above would really be the appropriate place. Especially not the Referees Commission. In the old days, this was the sort of thing that the Board would and did take up, but thankfully we're no longer in the old days. If someone contacted any of the above on this, I would hope they'd get referred to the Tournament Committee. And before contacting the TC about it, one might find it useful to know and understand that the TC (and related NO office staff) were already asked for their input about it. While that was years ago and with some different folks on the committee and staff, a good number of the reasons why the motion wasn't adopted still exist.
     
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  16. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    That's kind of what I thought, mfp. And I thought of suggesting the Tournament Committee, but its hard to know exactly who to bug :)
     
  17. CluelessFencingMom

    CluelessFencingMom Rookie

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    And those reasons would be?
     
  18. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    I really, REALLY doubt it. Even at the local level, I would think it is vanishingly rare. Based on the comments made and the person to whom they were addressed, this appears to have been nothing more than a pissed off fencer thinking she was getting a raw deal, and certainly not some ridiculous conspiracy to keep a random teenaged fencer from getting an A.
     
  19. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    I just re-read the thread and I don't see anything that I would present to USFA as compelling enough to change the rule. Not saying there isn't an argument, I just haven't seen it.
     
  20. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Wait, I am insane? Rhetorical, please don't answer :D

    An A4 needs 4 As in the top 8 & 4 Bs or higher in the top 12. So what is wrong with the rating of this event? Top 8 contains 5 As, and 9-12 contains only 1 A, 2 Bs and a C. So it's not the excluded fencer who made this an A3 at all, but Ms. C finishing in the top 12, right?

    Post edited- last sentence was needlessly sarcastic, especially in light of my inability to math :(
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019

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