Errors in tournament results?

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by EpeeBlue, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. EpeeBlue

    EpeeBlue Made the Cut

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think I know the answer but just in case...

    Since we are urged to check the results sheets before we sign off, I assume there can be no corrections once a tournament is finished and results are posted on AskFred? Is this correct?

    I have to admit, I'm usually so fired up when I sign the sheets, I don't take a good look at the numbers. But this time, once the results were online, I noticed a small error. And no, the error would not be the difference between first place and last place! It's really no big deal, I'm just curious. :oops:

    Thanks.
     
  2. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2013
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    149
    If the results on FRED don't match the results you signed for (I had that happen once in a tournament I was BC for), the results on FRED can be corrected.
     
  3. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,602
    Likes Received:
    142
    Good events also will post the pool round results before posting the DE tableau to allow fencers to check for errors. Once, a tournament entering the info for pool 2 as pool 4 and vice versa, and luckily I caught it right away, but sometimes I don't notice an error until it's already on AskFred, like when I lost a pool bout 4-3 but it was entered as 5-3. There doesn't seem to be any mechanism though for DE scores being inputted incorrectly. The last tournament I fenced, I lost my DE 15-7 but it's on Fred as 15-1 -- bad handwriting on the part of the referee, but incorrect DE scores don't actually affect anything.
     
  4. Ancientepee

    Ancientepee DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    900
    Likes Received:
    139
    At an NAC a number of years ago, a fencer turned in a DE scoresheet with the scores reversed indicating that she had lost the bout rather than won it. She had signed the scoresheet. When she turned it in, the BC person read off the results. The fencer looked a little confused but nodded and walked away. It was only when the next round started and some of the bouts had already begun that she told the BC that her name was not listed but the person she had beaten was. It was the final repechage table in a DE of 32 which involves a reseeding and so the bouts already in progress would have to be stopped and nullified. The BC ruled that since she had signed and agreed to the incorrect scoresheet, it was official. A jury of appeal was requested and it agreed with the BC. The fencer was credited with the loss and the fencer who actually lost was told she could fence the repechage bout. She said that she didn't feel right about still fencing when she had, in fact, lost and withdrew. So it's important that fencers verify not only the results on Fred after the competition is history, but also the scoresheets that they're signing during the course of the competition itself.
     
  5. Privateer

    Privateer DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    95
    I had a 15-4 victory recorded as a 15-14 victory. took a little crap from a couple people at club about letting an absolute beginner score 14 touches.
     
  6. Strytllr

    Strytllr Made the Cut

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    17
    I once witnessed a referee managing a squad of DE bouts at an SYC ask each fencer who presented him the DE slip to tell him his/her name and whether they won or lost the bout and the score of the bout. At first, I found this hysterically amusing, watching the fencers stumble over his questions. But in hindsight, I realized exactly how smart he was in confirming that the youth knew what they had signed and legitimized. I don't remember his name, but I certainly learned something valuable from him about being a good referee. :D
     
    Stormbringer and jdude97 like this.
  7. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2013
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    149
    Are you sure you're talking about a referee (pod captain)? What you're talking about makes much more sense at the Bout Committee table where fencers are handing in bout slips.

    If the fencer is presenting a referee with a bout slip, it's going to be a blank one. Now it's possible that the referee could be asking the fencer's name to check that the fencer got the right slip for the next bout, but normally there would be no way for the referee to know the score of the previous bout.
     
  8. dberke

    dberke Podium

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2003
    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    234
    Asking the fencers the score in their DE bout is actually a huge waste of time. Especially with kids - they're so hyped up on adrenaline from winning they often don't recall the score. As long as the winner is recorded correctly, it doesn't matter if they won 15-7 or 15-8. If it takes you more than 20 seconds to process a fencer, you're doing it wrong. (For small events it doesn't matter much, but if you have to process a line of fencers returning slips in the T256, that extra 20 seconds multiplied by 128 suddenly adds up quickly.)

    The proper procedure is to look at the slip and ask the fencer their name. If that matches the winner on the slip, that's all that matters. Don't ask yes/no questions ("Are you so-and-so?") because many people (again, especially kids) will just answer "yes" without thinking.

    If there is an error in the scores and is noticed later, it's easy to fix in the DEs (except in the repechage example given earlier.) It's a lot more of a hassle after the tournament is finished and everyone has gone home - in that case you need to track down the person who ran the event and hope they still have access to the PC they used so they can fix it.

    Amusing story: A few years ago, I was running an SYC and we got a phone call at the club. It was a parent calling to let us know there was an error in a pool score (they saw it on the live results.) Since pools were still going, we could still fix the error... until we realized that the person was talking about an event that had completed two days ago! We explained that at that point it was impossible to fix, although I really wanted to tell the parent that if they could get the other 30-something fencers to come back and agree to re-fence the entire DE tableau, we'd gladly make the change!

    Dan
     
    TooLoftheDeviL likes this.
  9. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,529
    Likes Received:
    153
    When I am working bout committee, I always look at the DE slip the fencer hands me and verify his/her name and the score, congratulate them, and then enter the bout.

    As far as NACs go, from the time my kids were little we always checked what was posted against the score we kept stripside. Only a few times have we needed to correct scores- once or twice it was a data entry error by the BC and they were happy to correct it, once or twice it was a ref reversal (but that is dealt with before signing), and once I saw that another fencer in the pool's scores were wrong (I alerted his coach, who was very upset that his fencer had signed it but was able to have the BC correct it, and it made a HUGE difference in the DE bracket).

    Check it before you sign it! And you for sure can't complain if the scores were posted for review prior to the bracket being generated.
     
    Privateer likes this.
  10. dsapery

    dsapery DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2005
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    39
    As with everything else in life, the answer is "it depends." The biggest one is that it depends on having reasonable people on the BC. There are some people who won't make corrections no matter what.

    The general rule of thumb is that if the error is by the bout committee (ie., typed in 5-13 instead of 15-13), it'll be corrected. I've had that happen where we fat-fingered the data entry, and the wrong athlete was advanced in the computer. The DE ticket for the next bout was hand-written so it had the right names on it, but since the aforementioned athlete lost the next bout, we didn't notice the error until after the tournament completed and the parent noted that their kid was shown as going out in the 64 instead of the 32. We were able to correct it.

    But fixing a score in a pool after the DE has started is an impossibility. The software simply won't allow it to happen (as the author of Fencing Time implied above).
     
  11. Steve Khinoy

    Steve Khinoy DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    66
    I saw a pool bout victory recorded the wrong way because the ref didn't notice that one of the fencers was left-handed (and so gave the victory to the right instead of the left). The actual winner didn't make the DE. The BC didn't allow the correction because the affected fencer had signed the pool sheet. There are two morals to this:
    • Actually check the score sheet, folks!
    • Some BC's are SOBs.
     
    Privateer likes this.
  12. mfp

    mfp Podium

    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    184
    Not completely correct. If the event is running (as opposed to completed), Fencing Time allows stopping and abandoning the DE round, at which point the operator can go back and fix the pool score(s), re-complete the pool round, reseed the DE round and restart it.

    Seems drastic ("We already sent DEs out and people are fencing!"), but it's the reasonable and correct thing to demand in cases where a BC compounds their data entry errors by also failing to give fencers a reasonable opportunity to catch and report those errors.

    If the BC posted pool results, gave proper notice and opportunity to check them, but the errors weren't disputed, then the results as posted should stand.

    However some organizers start DEs fencing without bothering to post pool results; they just post the tableau and send out DE slips. Or they post the pool results, the tableau and start fencing bouts all at the same time. When called out on it (as they always should be), some have also claimed "fixing a score in a pool after the DE has started is an impossibility". Don't let them get away with that claim.
     
  13. Strytllr

    Strytllr Made the Cut

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    17
    It was indeed the pod captain. I am not sure why the fencers were told to present their finished DE slips to him prior to taking to the BC table, but that was what they were doing.
     
  14. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,602
    Likes Received:
    142
    Fencers present their slips to the pod captain so the pod captain can record the winner on the printed tableau that is used to run the pod and fill in the next bout slip which are also pre-printed.
     
  15. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2013
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    149
    OK, that makes sense, though I don't know of many tournaments where the pod captains fill in the bout slips. Seeing the pod captain before taking the slip to BC also helps the fencer recognize who they're supposed to go back to after they go to BC. When the bout's done, I can say "see the woman with a pencil in her hair" and point to her.
     
  16. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,529
    Likes Received:
    153
    At our events, we have the pod ref run the DE table about 1/3 of the time, and the BC work the slips the rest of the time. Depends on staffing, are we in a hurry, etc.
     
  17. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,602
    Likes Received:
    142
    I've seen such a pod captain system at everything from a NAC table of 512 to my local RYC with 16 fencers (I got to be the pod captain :D)
     
  18. Peach

    Peach Podium

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2001
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    753
    I've signed reversed scores a couple of times, which the bout committee fixed when I took them up. And at World Veteran Championships, I beat someone 10-0 and the score was recorded as 10-7. But at least I still won.
     
  19. dsapery

    dsapery DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2005
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    39
    I oversimplified, and you're correct. You can abort the DE and re-seed the whole thing. It's just a royal pain when it's a T64 or bigger.

    I kinda was meaning after a significant portion of the DE has begun. Or after the entire tournament is finished.
     
  20. ladyofshalott99

    ladyofshalott99 DE Bracket

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    59
    1. AskFRED is not official. The only results for Sanctioned competitions that are Official are those validated by your Division and the National Office.

    2. Why aren't you checking your pool sheets at the end of your bouts? Waiting until after the Tournament to dispute your issue is way, WAAAY too late to protest; when the Referee turns it in, after you've signed, your protest is null and void.
     
    ReadyFence likes this.

Share This Page