Equipment Check at SYC and Other Basic Questions

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by mamadedos, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. mamadedos

    mamadedos Rookie

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    My son will be competing at his first SYC in a couple of weeks, and I am hoping to have a bit of clarity going in. We are US expats living--and fencing--in the UK, so this will actually be his first US competition. He fences Y10 this year.

    1) Do equipment checks need to be completed on the day of his event or can they be done the previous day? His check-in closes at 8 am on a Sunday, and I don't want to end up feeling pressed for time if there is a long line at the check point.

    2) Actually, this brings up another point for clarification: The events schedule lists his event for 8 am. Does this mean check-in closes at that time or that the event begins at that time? Typically, in the UK, the listed time is close of check-in, but I have noticed that other countries follow different norms.

    3) Will results of the competition be registered with US Fencing fairly immediately? The way I have understood the tournament site is that the qualifications deadline for Summer Nationals is nine days following the end of this competition. I assume that there will be others attempting a last-minute qualification as well.

    4) The description states that fencers can fence with size 0 or 2 in the Y10 category. Are there matches in which one fencer will fence with a 0 and the other with a 2? What is the protocol for making the choice? When the option is given at competition here, I have advised my son to choose the same size weapon as his opponent. However, I'd prefer not to pack four weapons, if possible.

    5) And just out of curiosity: Can anyone explain to me the $70-$100 (regular deadline!) registration fees for competitions? I have never paid more than $45 here in the UK--typically $20--and in Hungary, France and Poland, I have paid $7, $10 and $20, respectively. Just, "Wow!"

    Thanks in advance for any and all assistance!
     
  2. bobb121

    bobb121 DE Bracket

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    1) They usually let you in 1 hour before. Show up at 7am and get the gear checked.
    2) close of check-in
    3) depends on the organizers and if they use fencing time.
    5) Davis Sierra can answer this better than I can. My personal opinion is because the organizers has to fund everything themselves as opposed to the UK.
     
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  3. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    1) You can do equipment check the day before. I would recommend it to avoid a long line. Equipment check should be open the previous day until the last bout of the day is fenced, and maybe later is the armorers are extra nice. With that said, even at a busy SYC, if you show up an hour before close of check in on the day of the event, the line probably won't be too long.

    2) 8am is the close of check-in. The actual start of fencing could be five minutes later or an hour later, depending on a plethora of things, including size of the event, referee availability, quality of event organization, etc. If I had to guess, I'd say fencing will begin 8:20-8:30am for an 8am close of check-in.

    3) Not sure when results get officially registered, but if your son qualifies for SN, and you register in advance of the deadline, you will be 100% fine.

    4) Size 2 is the standard length weapon for Y10 (aka junior blade). I've never seen a size 0 weapon, afaik it's an even shorter weapon. So your son should definitely use a size 2 weapon -- the longest possible weapon and the weapon most if not all of his opponents will be using.

    5) SYCs are big events, often using large convention centers, flying in top referees, and renting large quantities of quality infrastructure (aluminum pistes and nice scoring boxes, at some events). Plus the USFA takes a cut of the registration fee. From what I understand, most SYCs are barely profitable.

    I hope this helps, and best of luck to your son!
     
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  4. dcchew

    dcchew Podium

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    I've been an armorer at several of the SYCs, ROCs, and RYCs in the Northern California area over the past 2 or 3 years. Normally, most equipment checks will follow the standard North America Cup (NAC) format. That will involve electrical resistance checks of body cords, mask cords, lames, saber gloves lames, foil mask bib lame, saber masks. Most times, armorers will allow a small bit of deviation from the rule book requirements, but not much. Dead spots and areas in lames are not allowed.

    In addition, there will be a mandatory safety inspection of all gloves and masks. No holes in the gloves are allowed. They must be repaired or replaced. The mask mesh will be checked with a standard mask punch and checked for loose trim that can catch a tip. The bibs must be intact and secured to the mask. Missing rivets are grounds for failing a mask.

    Saber fencers must have a 800 newton rated gloves with a FIE label.

    The weapons will be checked on the strip in the usual method by the referee. The fencer is still responsible for making sure that the weapon will pass the weight test (and shims for epee).

    It is highly recommended to have your equipment inspected the previous day if possible. Generally, priority will probably be given to fencers who have events that day. However, there are usually several quiet times around the equipment check area, that is a good time to get your child's equipment checked.

    The facilities for regional tournaments like RYC, SYC, etc. can vary a lot in their setup. For example, The Fencing Center in San Jose, CA is a permanent fencing club facility with 11 metal strips permanently secured to a raised wooden floor, 5 additional strips (raised wooden floor), changing rooms, overhead large monitors for displaying Fencing Time live results. All scoring machines are hung from the ceilings and floor cords are underneath the raised wooden floor.

    Other event sponsors may rent facilities and rent equipment from one of several national fencing equipment suppliers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  5. NipperDad

    NipperDad Made the Cut

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    Do it before the day of the event if you can. Gives you time to repair/replace and you won't be stressing in line that morning.

    It's close of check-in. Depending on the organizer, they'll start anywhere between 15 minutes and 3 hours later (*cough*Denver*cough*).

    Yes. The requirements are something like their having to submit results and $$$ to USFA with a couple of days. If they blow it (and they won't want to assuming they want to run an SYC again sometime), you won't be the only people impacted, and I'd imagine Something Will Be Done.

    There will likely be bouts w/ a 0 vs a 2, but the only requirement is that you use blade shorter than x inches (which I'm not bothering to look up). Use whatever you want at or under the limit, it doesn't matter what your opponent uses. (If you want to cover all the bases, make sure your 2s are actually leagal. The real rule is length in inches, not whatever the manufacturer chose to stamp on the blade. So your 2 could be illegal. I've never seen it be an issue, but it could happen in theory.)

    Clubs gotta get paid, yo.

    They're just charging what the market will bear, subject to the maximums that USFA puts in place (which I think can be waived w/ USFA approval).

    Have a safe trip and good luck!
     
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  6. David Sierra

    David Sierra DE Bracket

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    The venue costs money (in some cases a LOT of money as in five figures).

    The referees cost money ($70- $200 a day honorarium depending upon referee), plus travel (mileage or airfare, taxi, parking, etc), housing (even at 2 to a room it adds up fast), and meals/coffee.

    BC and armoury (same as refs).

    Awards.

    Publicity.

    Head tax.

    Utilities.

    Internet service.

    All sorts of things.

    Toss in a bit of profit (as in around 5-10% of revenue).

    $70 a head barely covers the costs.
     
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  7. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    In the UK there is a requirement for using 0 or 2 blades. That requirement does NOT exist in US Fencing competitions and hasn't existed for over 10 years. When they did have this requirement, it was unenforceable, since what is a 0 or 2 blade? It is a blade with a 0 or 2 stamped on it and I could stamp a 2 on a full size blade.

    The actual requirement is a blade less than or equal to 32.5". Please everyone, if you see any Athlete's package that gives the requirement as 0 or 2 blade, please forward to me.

    As far as fencers using different length blades, that is not a disadvantage. I know a fencer, who has blades around 70 cm (~27.5) and uses them very well against very tall fencers.
     
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  8. bbower

    bbower DE Bracket

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    Or you just run it at UNH and pocket 20k.
     
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  9. Steve Khinoy

    Steve Khinoy DE Bracket

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    As long as we're asking about facilities and money on this thread:
    About how many strips/sq ft to run an SYC or ROC?
    About how many refs and armorers?
     
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  10. David Sierra

    David Sierra DE Bracket

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    Depends on if there are other events and what region.

    The North Texas Roundup (SYC + RCC) and Wang Memorial (DivIA/2 + RYC) are each held in about 48K sq ft, with 31 strips.

    We aim for about 35 floor referees + 2-3 assigners, 4-6 BC personell (plus registration volunteers), and 3-5 armourers.
     
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  11. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    I could swear I still see this all the time! I will look more carefully from now on.
     
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  12. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    Bring three weapons, minimally, so when one fails, your fencer can still report to his next bout with the rule-specified two working weapons, while the third is being repaired.
     
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  13. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    The Athlete's Handbook includes the following (p. 47):

    Blades:
    See table below; for Y10 competitions, maximum blade length of 32.5”, all other competitions, standard blade length of 70-90cm (~27.5” – 35.4”) for foil/epee and 70-88cm (~27.5” – 34.6”) for Sabre. (FIE Material Rules, Jan. 2011, M.8, M.16, M.23)

    Code:
    Maximum Lengths, Blade Sizes 0-3
    Blade Size Number                 0        2      3
    Blade Length: MM
    Foil                            775      825     850
    Epee                            775      825     850
    Sabre                           765      820     850
    
    I think some confusion isn't unreasonable.

    B
     
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  14. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    How does the fencer compensate for the shorter length or even use it to their advantage?
     
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  15. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    First to oiuyt. I agree completely and I am partially to blame. I have been complaining about the use of the requirement for 0 & 2 blades since they first came up with this. In fact I was one of the three Armorers who were at the 1st competition they tried to require this. It had not been announced before hand and the only club using the shorter blades was headed by the wife of the USFA president. Considering who the 3 Armorers were, it did not happen.

    I have given many arguments, such as what about #1 blades, the stamping of full length blades, about some manufacturers do not stamp their shorter blades. Finally in 2007, the USFA changed it to 32", which I knew to be a worse rule. So I sent them that chart from the UK and showed them that 32" Foil & Epee blades would fail. So they put the chart in the Athlete's Handbook (not my idea) and kept the 0 & 2 illusion alive. I have given up trying to fix this, but if you could suggest that it is confusing maybe they might listen.

    I do admit this takes skill, speed and timing. But for demonstration, find someone very tall with a full length blade extended and use a short blade. What you do is beat the blade and step in. For them to hit you they have to draw back their arm or retreat to hit you. You don't have that disadvantage. The person who had these Foils, also had full length and a number of different handles for different opponents. They seemed to be successful as they were an A ranked fencer in all three disciplines.
     
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  16. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    You, Dan, and Carl??
     
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  17. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    In addition to the reasons given, it's habituation to prepare you for the national events.
    I just paid for SN . BTW registration is open.
     
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  18. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    I'd say it depends on the level of the competition. I'm not familiar with anything except US-based, but they appear to be on two separate levels. Local events (on AskFred) are usually in the $30-50 range, depending on club. National events (put on by USFencing) are much more. The differences David outlined are because USFencing needs to rent the facilities, while the local events typically at the club.

    Also the level of reffing is different. In the PA/NJ/MD/NY area, we're lucky many local club refs are the same as you'd find at the National events, but the National events also bring in refs from outside the area, who then need to have their costs mitigated.

    I've only been to one local event with Armorers and equipment checkins. National events have Armorers who again need to have costs mitigated.
     
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  19. teacup

    teacup Podium

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    To speculate on the reasons for the cost of entry, here are some differences between the EFC cadet circuit events and the USA Fencing national and regional cadet events:

    EFC Cadet Circuit:
    - Usually single or two weapon events held over Saturday and Sunday (very rarely adding Fridays)
    - The venues are often sports facilities, sometimes specifically for fencing
    - With fewer events, not as many strip set ups are needed
    - Often fewer restrictions on selling food, etc.
    - Countries are required to bring in refs per number of entries, if not they pay a fine
    - Anyone know how much refs are paid at EFC events? Are any volunteers?
    - Are cadet organizers required to pay a per head charge to the EFC?
    - Entry fees of €25 are set by the EFC but paid at the door.

    USA Regional and National events:
    - regional cadet events are either added to SYCs or junior events and include all weapons (although there is some flexiblity in the bid approval to split up weapons/events, most do not)
    - national cadet events are added to other events of all weapons
    - Having so many events means that most regional and all national events are held over three or four days including one or two work/school days
    - Venues are sometimes clubs but often facilitites that must be rented
    - If the facility is a convention center, there are often a lot extra charges and restrictions on selling food, etc.
    - Regional organizers must pay a per head fee to the national organization
    - Refs are paid per day depending on the size of the events, refs may need to be flown in, which means per diem and travel expenses
    - Entry fees are set by the national office and paid in advance with added administration or processing fees.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017 at 11:58 AM
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  20. mamadedos

    mamadedos Rookie

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    Thanks for your response, bobb121. Honestly, though I can't say that I know for certain, I do not believe that organisers in the UK receive any funding to run a competition, unless it is a national comp.
     

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