Epee, Call

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by jjefferies, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    Epee: Watched a bout last night in which the fencer on my left, lost a couple of touches that I thought he should have made. Without checking the weapon he asked the referee for a change of weapons. Standing at the half way mark, handed the referee his weapon and was handed a new weapon. Connected up preparatory to having the weapon checked, weight and shims. It didn't fire. Disconnected checked the body cord. Didn't fire. Checked the reel by plugging into the connecter and shorting A-B lines. No fire. Checked the reel, it was disconnected. It had apparently moved forward during the bout and the reel wire which was under the flooring was thus fixed in place and so had disconnected.

    At this point what should the referee's call be?
    1. reconnect the reel and continue?
    2. reconnect the reel and disallow the last touch by the fencer on the right and then continue?
    3. Any other possibilities?
     
  2. Belegur

    Belegur Made the Cut

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    It's an interesting case. I've certainly revoked cards that were given to a fencer for an apparent equipment failure, but was later revealed to be a problem with the reels. I think, though, that the materiality of a hit can't be revoked once there's a change of equipment.
     
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  3. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    *t.28.3* "If during a bout a fencer who has made a flèche attack has a touch registered against him and he continues to run beyond the extreme limit of the strip sufficiently far to cause his reel or the connecting line to his reel to be torn out, the touch which he has received will not be annulled."
     
  4. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    That's an awfully harsh interpretation. There are plenty of times when a reel moves without the fencer leaving the strip. In fact, I can't think of an instance like that (i.e., plug pulling out after fencer runs past the end) in any bout I've refereed, and like Belegur I've rescinded cards (and returned weapons) after the reel plug has come out though no fault of the fencer (usually it's a spectator).
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  5. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    2. Annul the touch (assuming that this is all happening after right scored a touch and the referee hasn't subsequently called "fence."). Even though the fencer on the left didn't ask for a test before changing the weapon, we've established the material possibility that a touch by left did not register because of a failure of the apparatus. Yes, there was a change of the equipment in use, but it's clear from the type of failure that the failure of the apparatus preceded the change. To deny the annulment for that is an excessively lawyerly and pedantic approach to the rules.
     
  6. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

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    This does not sound like the situation being described. It sounds like a fault was found in equipment other than the fencer's weapon, before the bout had recommenced, and the last touch should be annulled.
     
  7. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    To my recollection, there was no fleche. This was an open and fencer on the left was young, i.e. under 20. He had been bouncing but definitely had not gone beyond the end of the strip. Shouldn't have mattered particularly to the fencer on the right who was 5 touches up. But still he did object.
     
  8. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Absent fleche, concur with Goldgar. At a NAC, an unfortunate epeeist didn't notice his unplugged reel until after he had disconnected following his loss.
     
  9. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    t.28 is a very specific rule. I understand it grew out of an incident in which an epee fencer made a fleche, was hit by the opponent and the fencer proceeded to run out the fleche until the reel disconnected. He then demanded a test of his weapon which of course did not work, and he argued for the touch to be annuled.

    In this case, Zebra's answer is the correct one.
     
  10. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    It happened more than once. There was a certain club in South Texas that was famous for recycling frayed reel wires; they'd just cut the ends off and make them shorter and shorter until you barely had enough reel wire to go all the way down the strip. The local fencers knew that if they fleched off the end of the strip after they got hit, the reel would get yanked along after them and disconnect from the ground wire or break, then they'd ask for the touch to be annulled. I fenced in Texas in the 80s when the rule was already in place, but people still tried this. I think it was put in place in the 70s? But I'm not sure. Probably one of our old rule book collectors could tell us when it first appeared.
     
  11. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    G*****m epee fencers.
     

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