End of Strip warning line

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by EpeeBlue, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. EpeeBlue

    EpeeBlue Made the Cut

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    Hi,

    When you drive your opponent to the end of the strip during a bout, does he receive a warning, or is a touch scored against him?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

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    There is no warning. Once the fencer has gone off the end with both feet, a point is awarded to the opponent.

    Many years ago, there used to be a "meter warning", but that was done away with long ago. I've also seen small clubs with short strips -- significantly less than the regulation 14 meters -- implement a similar local rule, for in-house fencing. I don't think any sanctioned event could be conducted with such a rule, though.
     
  3. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    Touch against. If your attack lands at the same time the opponent steps off, it's only one touch counted, not two.
     
  4. Allen Evans

    Allen Evans Podium

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    t. 27 Should a competitor cross the rear limit of the strip completely—i.e., with both feet—a touch
    will be scored against him.

    The fencer is not warned before this happens.
     
  5. Stormbringer

    Stormbringer DE Bracket

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    The relevant rules are t.27 & t.104.

    t.27: "Should a competitor cross the rear limit of the strip completely - i.e., with both feet - a touch will be scored against him."

    t.104: "A competitor may have a touch awarded against him which he has not in fact received, either because he has crossed the rear limit of the strip, or because he has committed an offense which has prevented his opponent fencing (a flèche attack which jostles the opponent, the use of the unarmed hand while fencing, etc.)"

    Note that, as stated in t.27, the fencer is penalized only when **BOTH** feet **COMPLETELY** cross the rear limit of the strip.

    Also, note that crossing both the lateral boundary (with one foot) and the rear boundary at the same time (for example, by retreating into the corners of the strip) can result being reset with one's feet completely past the rear limit, resulting in the same penalty; see t.28.1, t.28.2, and t.17.9.
    In all other cases, t.17.8 applies ("The competitors may not be replaced on guard, at their correct distance, in such a way as to place behind the rear line of the strip a fencer who was in front of that line when the bout was halted. If he already had one foot behind the rear line, he remains in that position.")

    So, if/when fencing at your end of the strip, be very mindful of both the side-lines AND the end line!
     
  6. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    The applicable rule (t.27) reads as follows:
    A "meter warning" for getting to the end of the strip was removed a couple of decades ago.

    B
     
  7. erik_blank

    erik_blank Podium

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    If memory servers, when the "Meter Warning" was in force, the (then) Judge of the bout would verbally call out "Warning" as the competitors crossed the two meter warning line. In epee, competitors that crossed the 14 meter end line for the first time were reset at the warning line, and only penalized if pushed back across the end line again prior to being able to first cross the center line. If the epee competitor was able to regain gorund enough to cross the center line, then pushed back across the end line, the Judge once again reset the competitors back to the warning line... All this because the Epee strip was suppose to extend an additional 2 meters past the standard foil strip, but since most clubs did not have extra length grounded strips, this was the compromise... Ahhh fun times! Did I mention athat at this point, competitors did not gain point, but instead had points against?
     
  8. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    At NYC's Fencers' Club's 79th Street facility, half-strips were tournament-used. Off once, reset to one-meter warning line, off second time without gaining middle, touch against. Lights were reversed as well.
     
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  9. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

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    I can't believe that would be allowed as a sanctioned option.
     
  10. erik_blank

    erik_blank Podium

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    Lights then were NOT reversed! Lights are NOW reversed.... :-D I still have an old Leopn Paul club box that we have to switch the cables on so that the lights indicate the correct fencer... Of course the timing is all wrong for modern competitions also... *sigh*
     
  11. swordwench

    swordwench is a Verified Fencing Expertswordwench Podium

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    One other little tidbit about this rule is that if the retreating fencer breaks the PLANE of the strip at the rear with all of the second (lead) foot, the touch is still scored against him. The end line is considered in three dimensions (unlike the lateral boundaries which are NOT, by convention), so by moving the second foot past that vertical plane, he's out. He doesn't have to actually put his foot down on the ground for this to be called. Usually, we see a pumping action, and that second foot is about to set down, but then gets pulled up and forward again. Still OFF. And yes, this happens.

    Also note that this is a HARD HALT. Even if an action begins before the plane is broken, it is not valid - say, if the retreating fencer starts a mad counter-attack but it lands after both feet are off. (Obviously, the advancing fencer doesn't get two touches, but technically, if an action starts before the retreating fencing goes off, but lands after, the touch is really for going off, not for landing the touch.) And yes, this happens, too.
     
  12. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Called "pendulum foot".
     
  13. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    Actually you are both wrong. You forget we actually have 3 'Official' rulebooks. From the Operations Manual 3.1.3.5.a you will find this, "Local: Fencing strips need to be at least 1 meter wide and 12 meters long, with adequate run-off. Grounded strips are preferred but not required. Scoring apparatus can be located at a reasonable position along the strip, ensuring clear visibility for the referee’s line of sight to the fencing; with placement at the center of the strip optimal. The final two meters of the strip must be clearly marked. In regards to the run off, if the facility does not have the means for exact compliance, accommodations must be made in how the strip usage is handled. For example, if there is insufficient room for the proper length of the strip, then the fencer must be given opportunity in use of the strip to have an equivalent amount of strip during the bouts."

    Now this does not allow for a meter warning line. The shortening must be done from the center. But it does allow for the shortening of the run-off (the area behind the piste). Now of course these shortened piste can not be used for qualifiers. Swordwench gave a good sidenote, which I will attempt to emulate. If you need to shorten a piste, you must shorten every piste for a competition.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  14. jjefferies

    jjefferies Podium

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    I believe there are short strip rules implemented as needed in all three of the Divisions I regularly fence in. The Bay Cup, i.e. sanctioned events, has been working with the Divisions to standardize the short strip rules for local events. To not allow sanctioned events with less than full size strips would penalize smaller clubs and a few of the larger ones who do not have room for both strips and run-off space. Clubs frequently prefer to have their strips laid out with the maximum amount of space devoted to fencing and skimp on run-off. The rule as I understand it calls for the action to halt when the retreating fencer's back foot touches the final line or crosses it. The fencers are then put on guard with the retreating fencer straddling the 1 meter line which is now the end of strip. In almost every situation this allows enough safe room for both fencers to fence safely, i.e. allow for fleches and other maneuvers. There is one issue that comes up rarely which is what happens if the retreating fencer in the heat of the encounter should step off the end of the strip with both feet before the referee can call halt. Usually this is left to the referee's discretion but most often is just called as is normal, i.e. stepping off the end of the strip and loss of a touche. Another question is how long the new end of strip line is in force and the general consensus is until a touche is scored or the other fencer is forced to retreat to their end of strip.
     

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