Does side judge need to be a ref

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by jkormann, Jan 13, 2019.

  1. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,259
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    SE PA
    A question arose asking if a side-judge also needed to be a referee, or if a spectator or other fencer could fulfill that role.
    The Rules say what their a Judge's role is, not any qualifications. The AH doesn't even mention the role of Judge.
     
  2. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    3,946
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas Riviera
    Generally yes, in the local events I've been to in the past ten years or so.

    I think it's a good idea. I reffed an epee thing a few months ago where foot judges were needed in virtually every bout from the eight on up, and the head ref insisted all foot judges be refs. He was right, the foot calls were non-obvious and in a couple of cases decided the bout. You can't leave that up to some rando out of the crowd.
     
  3. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,699
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    As far as I know, it is not required, but it's a good idea. The exceptions I have seen, however, have not been "some rando out of the crowd", but reliable, experienced fencers who know what they're looking for.
     
  4. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,976
    t. 30 states "These judges, one on each side of the strip, will watch all aspects of the bout..." That requires a rated ref.
     
  5. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2001
    Messages:
    37,164
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in your nightmares!
    But t.30 does not address foot issues; and in any case these worthies are not "side judges". Side judges, four in number, were part of the scoring method for non-electric sabre ( and I suppose the other weapons back before they went electric ).

    Neither does t.30 require that these "two neutral judges" be referees. One might make an argument that by naming them "judges" it does NOT specify that they be referees.

    However, it is probably a good idea that they be referees, and certainly that they be persons experienced with fencing.
     
  6. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,259
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    SE PA
    In my limited experience, I've seen side judges used for watching going off the strip, covering target, and hitting floor / off-target. None of these should require Ref-level knowledge of the sport, much less experience. Did their arm "chicken-wing" over the target during close-quarters? Did their whole foot cross over the tape? Did the tip hit the wall?
     
  7. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

    Joined:
    May 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,117
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    That's what I assumed, but I found the rules unclear. I'm looking at Chapter 6, Refereeing and the Judging of touches

    t.46.1
    By accepting a position as Referee or judge, the person so designated pledges his honor to respect the Rules and to cause them to be respected, and to carry out his duties with the strictest impartiality and absolute concentration.​

    One possible reading is that all judges are referees, and the judges simply have distinct duties. Another reading is that referees and judges are two distinct classes of officials.

    t.47 is about referees, and it specifies that they must have a "referee license."

    t.47.1
    All bouts in fencing are directed by a Referee who must be in possession of an up-to-date US or international refereeing license.​

    t.48 is about judges, and it does not.

    t.48.1
    The Referee fulfills his functions with the aid of an apparatus for the automatic registering of touches; he may also be assisted by two judges watching for the use of the unarmed hand or arm, substitution of the valid target, touches scored on the floor in épée, leaving the strip to the side or the rear or any other offense defined in the Rules (cf. t.170).​
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  8. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,976
    Yours is better.
     
  9. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2001
    Messages:
    37,164
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in your nightmares!
    Again...those were not 'side judges'. Side judges watched all of the fencing, like referees, and like the referee ( then 'director' ) had a vote on the action and the awarding of touches. Foot judges, ancillary judges or just 'judges' have a much more limited function and power.

    I haven't seen a side judge in 20 years.
     
    erik_blank likes this.
  10. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,699
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    Side judges, as used in "dry" competitions, did not have a vote on the calling of the phrase, only on whether any given component of the phrase -- as set forth by the referee -- touched the opponent.

    I assumed that the original question was asking about modern assesseurs.
     
    erik_blank likes this.
  11. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,259
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    SE PA
    We (currently) call them "corner judge" in dry-foil.
    Yes.
     
  12. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,582
    Location:
    MD
    Bear in mind that all of these rules are written by the FIE for FIE events. Any resemblance between what the FIE does and what you may see (especially at a local level) is likely to be coincidental.
     
  13. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

    Joined:
    May 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,117
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    Sure, but USA Fencing has the ability to modify the rules, if needed. For example, I assume that the FIE does not include "an up-to-date US or international refereeing license." ;)

    jkormann should also check the Operations Manual. That's where USA Fencing used to include variations to the rules for local events, such as the minimum requirements for fencing strips at local events:

    Local: Fencing strips need to be at least 1 meter wide and 12 meters long, with adequate run-off. Grounded strips are preferred but not required.​

    (I only have the 2012 Operations Manual on this computer, and a brief search didn't find any mention of side judges except for a reference to the old version of the 4.46.1 rule that I mentioned above.)
     
  14. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2001
    Messages:
    37,164
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in your nightmares!
    OK, but that's informal. We tend to just call them foot judges in sabre, as crossing over forward or stepping off the strip are about the only rule infractions that are common in sabre. And that too is just what we call them, as a matter of informal practicality. If we're talking about the rules and requirements as a matter of formality they are side judges...even if that's by rules which are no longer used. If it's the persons used only to watch for infractions it's judges or assesseurs ( depending on whether it's the designation of US Fencing or FIE ).
     
  15. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,259
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    SE PA
    Per USFencing, "The current Athlete Handbook is the most up to date document for USA Fencing Members, Clubs, Regions & Divisions. The Operations Manual is only updated periodically so please defer to the current Athlete Handbook." The AH didn't have anything that I found for side-, corner-, floor-judges.

    Guess the summary for this is "Rules don't say, but current interpretation is to use a Ref."
     
  16. erik_blank

    erik_blank Podium

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,036
    Location:
    Indiana, PA
    Hummm.. I had always called the "Corner" judges....
     
  17. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2001
    Messages:
    37,164
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in your nightmares!
    It's an edge case. ;)
     
  18. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,284
    Location:
    Pennsauken, NJ
    And t.47.1 states "All bouts in fencing are directed by a Referee who must be in possession of an up-to-date US or international refereeing license." Despite being in the rules, this is not consistent with actual USA Fencing policy and referees (much less side judges) are not required to be rated. Note the following from the 2018-19 Athlete Handbook:

    There has been discussion of adding a "USA Fencing Note" or otherwise amending t.47 in the US rules to conform better to current policy.

    B
     

Share This Page