Div 1 consolation/ratings events: How is the rating determined?

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by damianip, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. damianip

    damianip Podium

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    Some of these events have less than 64 competitors and are still rated as A3 events.

    Can someone explain?

    Has this been covered in another thread?

    This question is bouncing around on FB as well.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    It depends on the event, but regardless of whether they make the minimum number of competitors or the right number of competitors of a given classification NAC events are always supposed to be rated at a certain level.

    Why a Div 1 event would be rated A3 instead of A4 I don't know.
     
  3. saberist

    saberist Rookie

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    A Div 1 NAC is rated A4, I think what you saw on your insert is Div 1 - A NACs, you must have missed the A as part of Div 1A
     
  4. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    I suspect that someone at the NO just made an ad hoc decision and presto! a rating for an event too new to have made it onto the classification chart yet.
     
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  5. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    I suspect the more relevant ad hoc decision wasn't made by someone at the NO but rather by whoever was sitting in front of the screen setting up each of these events in Fencing Time. And that that person may have been different for the Oct, Dec and Jan NACs.
     
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  6. hello?

    hello? Podium

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    The first time they had the two-day Div 1 epee NAC, the second day tournament (for those who did not make the cut) was advertised as a "Div 1A" tournament. Div 1A tournaments have always been A3 by default, regardless of competitor ratings. In October, the 2nd day tournament was renamed a Div 1 "Classification" tournament and it was not supposed to be an A3...but someone posted the results as such. In December, I was told that the October WE ratings were a mistake but they were letting those ratings stand (but rating the events correctly going forward). So December was not an A3. THEN, this past weekend, the second day of WE was AGAIN rated as an A3.

    Roughly the same number of competitors in WE "Div 1 Classification" tournaments during October, December and January (December might have actually been a tad stronger than the other two). Top four got As in October and January but not in December. I have asked the USFA for clarification. Have not heard back. :)
     
  7. Montoya

    Montoya DE Bracket

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    According the the Athlete Handbook, the format for the Div 1 Epee NACs is listed in Athlete Packet. This is the language from the Athlete Packet.

    A preliminary pool on day 1 with the top 62 initially seeded persons receiving a bye to day 2. 75% of the preliminary pool promoted to a preliminary direct elimination table until 64 persons remain. A final pool round on day 2 with the top 62 initially seeded persons joining the 64 remaining persons from the preliminary direct elimination table. 112 persons advance from the final pool round to a final simple direct elimination table. Tie Breaker Note: The point standings as of the day after the entry deadline will determine the priority order of fencers and alternates. Results that change the point standings between the deadline and the competition will not affect selection. Notification of selection will be sent by email to all fencers who have entered. If there are ties on the point standings, it will be resolved by the following criteria: • Total number of points accumulated in Group II of the selection criteria. See Chapter 3 for specific details. • Highest points earned at a single designated World Cup or GP used in calculating the sum of points in Group II • Next highest points earned at a single designated World Cup or GP until there is no tie • Highest place at a single designated World Cup or GP • Next highest place at a single designated World Cup or GP until there is no tie • Highest place in any U.S. national point competition • Next highest place in any U.S. national point competition until there is no tie • If there is still a tie, then the Director of Sports Performance, National Weapon Coach, and a representative from the AAC will resolve the tie The top 62 initially seeded persons receiving a bye will be determined immediately following the close the regular fee entry period. Notes: All persons eliminated from the competition in day 1 will be automatically entered into a Div I Epee Classification Tournament event on day 2. While athletes in the Classification Tournament event on day 2 will not be eligible for Division I national points, they will be eligible to renew and upgrade their classification based on the chart located on the last page of this packet.

    Lots of quirks in the implementation of this format. First: the top 62 fencers are supposed to be determined by the regular registration deadline. This list is published as soon as the regular deadline closes, so that fencers can make their travel plans. However the registration system allowed a fencer with a rank in the 30's who registered during the late period to register for only the second day of the January NAC. No one caught this. Much consternation when she arrived on the second day to fence and was not on the exempt list - but since her receipt went through, she was allowed to fence in the second day. Second: 7 fencers from the initially exempt top 62 didn't show up to fence. At least three of these had notified the NO that they were withdrawing (and one of them is listed on the registrants as withdrawn); yet they were included in the seeding for day 2 pools. Yes, I know when fencers fail to show up at a world cup, the pool is left unchanged. But those are usually very last minute no-shows. Since the strongest fencers are the ones who may decide they don't need points and not show up, this makes the weighting of the pools less even. Third: for the Div 1 event, the seeding from the first day carries to the second day. However for the Div 1 Classification Event the seeding does not carry over and the event is reseeded based on ratings. Fourth: the aforementioned awarding of an A3 to an event that (according to the materials in the Athlete Packet) should be an A2.
     
  8. dsapery

    dsapery DE Bracket

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    I responded to the thread on Facebook with the following:

    In FencingTime, you create the classification event from the eliminated athletes (a new feature in FT43). From a FencingTime perspective, it's a totally separate event.

    So it will assign a group (A4, A3, etc) based on the field size, strength, and finish of just the athletes in that event.

    The D1C events in Virginia Beach appear to follow what I described above. The October D1CWE shouldn't have been an A3 based on that criteria, so someone elected to override FencingTime (yes, you have that option when clicking "Finish Event"). Why, I can't answer.
     
  9. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    The D1C WE event in Virginia Beach does not follow what you described.

    It was classified as an A3 event with only 51 competitors.
     
  10. dberke

    dberke Podium

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    When the D1C event is created in FT, it is created as a Div I-A event (to differentiate it from day 2 of the main Div I event.) Then, as a Div I-A event, the rule "Division I-A NACs & National Champions are always at least Group A3 competitions" kicks in. This is because the custom version of Fencing Time used at national events applies all of the "minimum event classification" rules since those are supposed to apply at all national events. (The computer operator could override this at the conclusion of the event, as dsapery mentioned.)

    Is that the correct procedure? That is a good question. When the two-day format was invented, they forgot to address the question of what the event classification of the consolation events should be.

    It seems a bit strange that you can earn an A classification by finishing in the top 4 of the consolation event. It could be argued that this is the same as awarding A classifications to the fencers who finish in places 127-130 in the main event.

    Dan
     
  11. SevenDad

    SevenDad DE Bracket

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    I don't mind giving out As for the D1C (consolation/classification/whatever) event as much as I mind the fact that at the Jan NAC you could make the final cut in Div1 WE WITHOUT HAVING WON A POOL BOUT (in the second round of pools).

    I think there has to be some carrot for the D1C fencers to fence a second event...though Dan's point in post #10 about this being equivalent to giving the 127-130 finishers A strikes me as maybe current system is too generous? Maybe treat the consolation like an A2 event regardless of size? Winning the D1C is not necessarily an easy thing to do depending on the field/who chooses to fence it.

    Another thing that's strange to me is that the no-shows still get listed in the results...so the Hurley sisters (and I'm assuming all the people tied for 120th place) show up in the placings, when it makes more sense — at least to me — to consider them withdrawn or DNF. How can a fencer who does not show up finish ahead of a fencer who did?
     
  12. RebelFencer

    RebelFencer Podium

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    Why is it strange? It is an entirely separate tournament for people who don't make it to day two of the big tournament that is overwhelmingly filled with A's and has C's as the minimum rating. You get a place in the original tournament as well. If a local tournament is running an Open (with cuts for some reason) and Div 2 event on the same day you don't tell the winner of the Div 2 that they actually only placed x overall because of their performance in that separate tournament.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  13. SevenDad

    SevenDad DE Bracket

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    @rebel: But would you agree that the consolation event should be treated classified as the numbers dictate — and not some arbitrary rating (which in cases cited, represents an upgrade from what the raw numbers would point to)?
     
  14. RebelFencer

    RebelFencer Podium

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    In this particular case, within reason, I can see the validity of adjusting the scale a bit. A local A4 could theoretically have 12As 12Bs 12Cs and 28Us, so at the Div 1 national level the rating density and level is going to (generally) be higher. Clearly there has to be a line though and I'm not sure where it should be. The important thing is that it needs to be codified so that it doesn't appear that they're making decisions like this on the fly.
     
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  15. teacup

    teacup Podium

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    If there is a tournament with 63 A fencers only the winner gets an A but if there are 64 A fencers the top 8 get As.
     
  16. RebelFencer

    RebelFencer Podium

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    I agree. And since the USFA is the organization that made that rule, it would make sense that they have the authority to alter it as they feel appropriate.
     
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  17. teacup

    teacup Podium

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    While many local and regional men's events may get to 64, it is more difficult for local, regional and even national women's only or even veteran events of both genders to get to 64. I really think there should be something inbetween.
     
  18. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    There is! It's called the A2. ;)
     
  19. dsapery

    dsapery DE Bracket

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    Someone must have overridden that in Portland, because the 18-entry D1CWE was only given a B1.
     
  20. teacup

    teacup Podium

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    Only one A is awarded at an A2. It is hardly in between one A for 63 and 8 As for 64.

    Why not change an A2 to award two As?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018

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