British Fencing does away with U-10 Nationals

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by dogimus, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. dogimus

    dogimus Rookie

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  2. Strytllr

    Strytllr DE Bracket

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    I think that's a great idea. The level of crap i saw last Saturday on the final day of Nationals was enough to turn my stomach. And it definitely impacted one of my y10 fencers who flat out said that she did not want to compete at nationals again because of what she experienced. I really wish the russian coach of a y10 girl in our pool would have been black carded. That he wasn't was only due to the immense restraint (or exhaustion) of the referee.
     
  3. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    What is it about Y10s that brings out the worst in coaches from hell??
     
  4. fencer-dad-of-fencer

    fencer-dad-of-fencer Made the Cut

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    I have no stake in this at all, but I don't see any need for U-10 Nationals, except possibly to get people to care about SYC's. My theory as to what brings out the coaches from hell is the difficulty refs may have in figuring out what actions U-10's are executing, leading to disagreements.
     
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  5. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Oh, that's easy in sabre....whiff, counter-whiff...usually from a distance Keeth Smart would have trouble reaching.
     
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  6. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    And then, Fencer A makes clumsy seconde which both brings the tip of their sabre in contact with the piste and the guard of the sabre in contact with their lame, and Fencer B then whiffs the attack and dunks their point into the strip, which brings up a light because of what A was doing (and me having to explain to the ref and coaches that yes, this is what is expected to happen, and no, the FIE and manufacturers were not thinking of Y10 sabre when spec'ing and designing scoring box behavior).
     
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  7. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

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  8. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Ok.....that beats MY example!!
     
  9. ReadyFence

    ReadyFence Podium

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    Ok I actually laughed out loud at this. Well played.
     
  10. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

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    I think there is no reason for Y10 national competitions.

    I think there is only a small argument to be made for Y12.

    Y14 makes sense as a preparatory tool for Cadet.
     
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  11. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    Spot on. And the fencers don't really have a grasp of ROW at that age either. The ones that do (or more likely understand only part of it) are more worried about getting ROW and the calls than they are about using good footwork and blade skills, and that hurts long-term development.

    For that reason, I wouldn't mind seeing a modified rulebook where there's no ROW at Y10 and maybe also for Y12 beginners. Sabre might be a little challenging, but for foil, they'd count double touches and not stop on off-target hits. It would promote better distance understanding, point control, and learning to parry. It would also solve the refereeing frustrations at this level.

    USA Hockey introduced a modified rulebook for our youngest age group almost 10 years ago: they play on a reduced-size rink with one fewer player per team, there's no offside rule, and very few face-offs. That way, the emphasis is on fundamental skills of skating, puckhandling, and shooting. It met with a lot of resistance at first, but it's more accepted now as the naysayers' predictions that the kids would fall behind in their development didn't come true. At this point, the American Development Model is well-established in other sports and its benefits are apparent. With appropriate leadership from our NGB, we could make age-appropriate modifications work in fencing too.
     
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  12. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    What about body-checking, slamming into boards and fighting?:D
     
  13. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    Good question! (seriously!).

    The same initiative that introduced half-ice games for mites also pushed back the introduction of body-checking to the Y14 level (previously it had been at Y12) and did some significant edits to the rulebook to distinguish between body contact (which is permissible at all levels including women's hockey) and body checking. It was part of the skills development model to make sure all players have a solid skills foundation and can't rely just on size and intimidation. There are other age-dependent rules modifications which our NGB has made in the interest of skills development, most recently eliminating the opportunity for shorthanded teams to ice the puck without penalty, which forces the players to do more puckhandling and passing. When you get to the junior level, that rule modification comes out because at that level, the organizational goal is to prepare players for college and professional hockey.

    Take-home message: making Y10s compete under the same rules and conditions as senior FIE events isn't essential for development of high-level athletes, and may even hinder it.
     
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  14. Privateer

    Privateer Podium

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    i was just thinking about this when I saw USFA post a video of Y10 something or other on the finals strip. I mean that's cool and all, but 10 year olds? come on. I've dealt with enough crazy parents/coaches in 10-year-old team sports I can't even imagine what it's like for fencing when the cost is multiplied by 10.

    they could replace it with something like Y10 Regional Championships if there's still demand for it.
     
  15. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Hockey Drift: According to Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, 11 month-older Canadian hockey kids do.
     
  16. oiuyt

    oiuyt Podium

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    Partially, but they also have better developed kinesthetic sense and more time spent developing the skills foundation (skating, puck handling, and shooting) mentioned by zebra. Size matters in terms of strength, speed, and power generation. Per Gladwell's* argument, January-birth Canadian hockey players would have accumulative advantage even absent an intimidation factor and without body checking.

    B

    * Actually Roger Barnsley's (with A. Thompson and P. Barnsley); Gladwell merely popularized the effect.
     
  17. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Who invented the telephone?:rolleyes:
     
  18. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    OK, and those kids (and the kids who are just naturally big) are always going to have that advantage over their peers born later in the cohort. Without a structured and age-appropriate development curriculum, those players are at risk of becoming one-dimensional, relying on their size and physicality without acquiring the other skills of the sport. Eventually, they end up as fourth-line wingers and the kind of players that cause veteran referees to stop working high school hockey, instead of becoming devastating combinations of power and skill.
     
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  19. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    This is something USA Fencing will likely look at and seriously think about. Just not the way most people expect.

    Remember that board minutes have revealed USA Fencing already has tournament staff heading an "Asia Working Group", presumably looking at events in Asia. Don't be surprised to hear USA Fencing propose to run the British RYCs (Royal Youth Championships).
     
  20. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Hockey drift continues: According to Roger Barnsley with A. Thompson and P. Barnsley (thanks Brad), early size advantage paves the path to professional hockey success.
     

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