AND NOW THIS...

Discussion in 'Armory - Q&A' started by Bellicose Patriot, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. Bellicose Patriot

    Bellicose Patriot Made the Cut

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    Revised rule m.25.3 approved on April 12th 2018 by USA Fencing Bord of Directors to be implemented on June 28th 2018 and August 1st 2018

    I am glad to see that this revision was written and disseminated in a logical manner (not) …however the enforcement for this change might now possibly trickle down to the “Armory Table”?…

    All of the other changes that have required inspection have… because, the referees complain that theses checks take up too much time…therefore they should be checked at control…because there is no time constraint at control and armorers have all the time in the world (ask anyone who has stood on line at an event…they might disagree with you)


    Gloves are a good example…a hole is a hole …is a hole…If it’s large enough to catch a blade or improper closure might cause injury to the fencers hand…NO GOOD!...a miss-weave or discoloration or Pin prick…GOOD! (Saber gloves being the exception…only because of the conductive material of the glove)…I have seen some concerned referees recheck gloves for more than just inspection tags (because they could have been damaged after inspection) using the very complicated technique as follows

    1) Fencer extends gloved hand palm down…(stamp checked…look for holes)
    2) Rotate hand 180 degrees…(check for holes…check Velcro)

    Time allotted 4-5 seconds…not mandatory but wise…by the by (these are the same referees that also have not allowed their combatants to fence with improperly secured masks…our current impending…soon to be decided upon…rule changie nightmare)…This same procedure could have been employed sans tag inspectionbut it takes too much time!...

    At control armorers have all the time in the world (but not if you want your events to start on time) which is why some very nice (and sometimes even qualified) referees often come by to offer help to the overburdened, overstressed armory that has “all the time in the world” to check equipment…

    Sooo…control might now have an additional item to inspect…here is why…the homologation tag… on the current issue it can be easily inspected when the jacket is opened…but this takes time...sometimes I have even noticed that a plastron inspection is not always done prior to the bout by some referees that are “running behind scheduleto save time

    This should not be an issue because the fencer should have had to be checked for a plastron and breast/chest protector (optional for men…compulsory for women…worn below plastron for foil) this requires the combatant to open his or her jacket…however logic seldom plays a large part!!!
     
  2. ktinoue3

    ktinoue3 DE Bracket

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    They are still going to have to check it on the strip since there is nothing preventing them from putting on a chest protector that isn't homologated. There is absolute no reason for the armory table to check this...........
     
  3. brtech

    brtech Podium

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    Right. We won't check this at the armory table. There is no point in marking it, and having the ref find the mark. They just look for the FIE label and the fencer is good to go.
     
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  4. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

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    At the beginning of a pool, pod, or assigned DE bout, the referee is supposed to verify that fencers are wearing a plastron and that female fencers are wearing a chest protector. In foil, they are supposed to be wearing this below the plastron. The fencer generally has to open their jacket for these checks anyway. So the FIE/SEMI mark, if placed where most manufacturers are placing it (the center of the upper edge) should be easily visible during these checks. Your complaint is moot so long as the referee is doing their job.

    The glove inspection is like a mask check: having this verified at the beginning of the competition saves time because it is a multi-step process that would otherwise need to be done before every bout. Additionally, the items in question are unlikely to change significantly during the course of a competition (unlike the spring in a foil tip, for example). Granted, a glove can tear, but a tear is pretty easy to observe when you are checking for an inspection mark.

    That inspection mark is unnecessary to have on a chest protector. The FIE/SEMI mark is sufficient as the characteristics of a chest protector are unlikely to change...ever really. Granted, a competitor can modify it (by removing foam), but that would be cheating. It would result in a black card an immediate disqualification, just like falsifying a mark on any other piece of equipment.
     
  5. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    'Drift'. There are a couple of problems with the glove analogy. First a perfectly safe FIE Sabre glove will be failed by one small dead spot. It could be used with a manchette, but not at a US Fencing competition. Second, Sabre referees do not check for an FIE mark, because the armorers have already checked. A fencer could use a non-FIE glove with a manchette and get away with it. How are we helping the fencers keep safe? Third, for Foil & Epee there is only one rule specifically for the glove (m.25.6). Control doesn't check it and from asking referees, they don't check, because it has a control mark, so it must be legal!
     
  6. brtech

    brtech Podium

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    We have communicated the following rule interpretation on sabre gloves
    Inspection of saber gloves:
    Saber gloves will be inspected for conformance to the new rules, these specifically require FIE homologated gloves for saber. If an FIE saber glove is presented that is FIE homologated and mechanically intact(e.g., no holes, tears, broken seams) but fails conductivity testing, the fencer will be offered a choice:
    a) Receive the glove back with no stamp and no markings. The fencer can have the glove repaired and resubmit it before fencing.
    b) Have the glove stamped and have the cuff visibly marked as failing using an indelible marker(Sharpie). The glove must then be used
    with a manchette.
     
  7. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    First that ignores my question! If they are not willing to do that because they don't have time to do a proper repair rather than have it marked so they can never get it repaired, they are encourage to use a less safe glove, because they can.
     
  8. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    But the glove isn't being stamped if it's unsafe. It's only stamped if it passes the safety check.
    The situation where the glove is stamped and the cuff is marked "FAIL" only happens if the glove passes the safety check.
     
  9. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    Exactly, you can't use a safe FIE glove, but you can use a unsafe (Non-FIE) glove with a manchette. Since the Foil/Epee gloves are marked exactly like a FIE glove without lame and the referees don't check if a glove is FIE. They don't have to, since they have already been checked by the armorers.

    My suggestion is for control to just check conductivity on gloves, since they have the equipment. The referees should check for Sabre, that they are FIE, instead of relying on the armorers and also have all referees check for m.25.6, which control does not do.
     
  10. brtech

    brtech Podium

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    All a ref has to do is see if the glove being used with a manchette is a saber glove.

    I'll tell you that the number of manchettes we inspect in a typical NAC is single digits. We might ask Refs to check what is underneath a manchette, since it is used so infrequently these days
     
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  11. brtech

    brtech Podium

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    I am told that the RC has already instructed refs to check that the glove used with a manchette is a saber glove with a mark.
     
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  12. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    I haven't sold a manchette since the FIE gloves were required.
     
  13. Bellicose Patriot

    Bellicose Patriot Made the Cut

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    B.O.H.I.C.A foil fencers…one of the “Experts”??... on the executive claims that the published deadlines for implementation was so designated because they were informed that there was sufficient stock available…the number of items available and in stock they were quoted contained an extra zero too many…accidently or, accidently on purpose …draw your own conclusions… however if they would have checked with the members of the technical committee (who had the correct number available) foil fencers would now not be scrambling to meet a Non-Attainable implementation date because of decreased availability…why have a technical committee if you ‘ignore their recommendations …another example of the Camel being the committee’s race horse…mistake or marketing ploy?...asking the question…will these dates now be altered?...in view of the totally unprofessional, immature, irrational way that this measure was passed …maybe we should remember this come the next elections…
     
  14. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

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    Is that deliberately written to look like crazed rambling?
     
  15. Bellicose Patriot

    Bellicose Patriot Made the Cut

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    this is just what happened...
     

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