Ancient Fencer and Sabre Priority

Discussion in 'New to Fencing' started by CWong, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. CWong

    CWong Rookie

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    Hi All,
    I started sabre fencing again after an absence of more than 30 years. The last time I fenced was in the early 80s before sabre became electric. The priority rules have changed significantly. It use to be that an extended arm had the priority but now it seems like some vague combination of moving forward and threatening a target area. I watched You-Tube videos and can't seem tell which is the attack. I was also told that the rule in the box is different than the rule out of the box. Can somebody enlighten me?

    Your help is most appreciated.
    Thanks.
     
  2. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    The rule is not different, but the "interpretation" of it is.

    Yeah. I don't understand it either.

    Anyway, it's extendING arm now.
     
  3. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    [QUOTE="CWong, post: 1183413, member: 125786"... I fenced was in the early 80s...an extended arm had the priority but now it seems like some vague combination of moving forward and threatening a target area.[/QUOTE]Having started saber before you and after almost two decades of reffing it - it's evolving, but you essentially get it. Watch international videos and shadow top-rated refs to stay current
     
  4. InFerrumVeritas

    InFerrumVeritas DE Bracket

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    T.75. is actually pretty clear in sabre (or more so than in foil). The timing is just very tight. It says that an attack is executed correctly "the beginning of the extending of the arm precedes the [advance/lunge] and when the touch arrives at the latest when the front foot touches the strip." So yes, if you're moving forward with your arm extending (even just a little or slowly) and your "point or the cutting edge [are] continuously threatening the valid target" then it's your attack.

    When actually on the strip, I think that the gut-check analysis of "did I react to what my opponent did or did my opponent react to me?" is a useful way to gage whether it was your attack or not. In general if they're moving forward before me, it's their attack and I need to deal with it or hope they miss.
     
  5. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Except ignore that part about "when the front foot touches the strip". 'Cause referees do and will.
     
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  6. Fourcomp

    Fourcomp Made the Cut

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    Yeah from my experience you either get one who ignores this and only cares about hand movement and others who only look at the feet really but they are generally 1 in 100.
     
  7. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    [QUOTE="Fourcomp, post: 1183625, member: 124902"...]only cares about hand movement and others who only look at the feet.[/QUOTE]I would *love* to be able to see all aspects, but often am given only a two-meter ref space. I prefer four meters for saber, and have another meter available if I call more than two simultaneous-in-the-box in a row.
     
  8. CWong

    CWong Rookie

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    Thanks all for those helpful hints.I am confused about the language concerning the "when the front foot touches the strip". Doesn't that mean that a fencer who is extending their arm and advancing end the attack with each step? It seems to me that fencer who continues moving forward still has priority.
     
  9. Steve Khinoy

    Steve Khinoy DE Bracket

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    The attack distance is defined as advance-lunge, so the attack ends as the front foot comes down in the lunge, not the advance. (On the other hand, if you cut with each step, the attack ends at the end of the step.)
    Knowledgeable people, people, please correct me if this simplification is badly wrong.
     
  10. Fourcomp

    Fourcomp Made the Cut

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    Although you could easily call each of them little cuts feints.
     
  11. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    As long as the blade doesn't come back after any of them, perhaps...
     
  12. Grey Sabreur

    Grey Sabreur Rookie

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    I am in a similar place. I learned my sabre before electric and have found my old 'sabre senses' are not serving me well. A senior sabre referee explained that he is looking for whoever acts first; they get the attack as long as the arm is extending. Blade direction seems mostly irrelevant.

    I have seen an "attack" called where the arm is moving forwards relative to the fencer's body but the blade is only threatening the floor or opponent's ankles. The position of the attacker's blade may have very little to do with whether they are given given the attack.

    Another adjustment is allowing a 'plaque' or flat hit. Now a fencer can flick their blade over an opponent's blade in any orientation and get a hit. Many judge's will allow this even if the blade bends sideways over a significant parry. Very frustrating! Cut & thrust has become slap & thrust.
     
  13. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    It's worse than that, particularly for those of us who are, ah, of a certain age. That is, it isn't even always whoever acts first. Sometimes it's who acts fastest. That is, both fencers start at the same time, both extend continuously, but one moves perceptibly faster than the other. In my experience the attack will go to the faster fencer at least 75% of the time.
     
  14. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    You mean the person who hits first gets the point?
    Odd..
     
  15. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    Not necessarily. Just the one who moves fastest.

    In any case, the rules do not award priority to whoever "hits first". In fact it very often goes the other way.
     
  16. Steve Khinoy

    Steve Khinoy DE Bracket

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    A cut from below is just as valid as a cut from above.
    My recollection is that cuts with the first third of the flat of the blade counted. As for cuts that whip past a parry, the scoring machine should lock these out more reliably than visual judges ever did.
     
  17. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    That was the first third of the back of the blade, eg the false edge.
     
  18. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee Podium

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    If both begin simultaneously, the more aggressive attack is called - at least currently.
     
  19. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    We can use whatever euphemism we like, it still comes down to goes the fastest.
     
  20. Zebra

    Zebra DE Bracket

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    "Fastest" ≠ "soonest"
     

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