After two years, how do you feel about SABER timings?

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by keropie, Jun 25, 2006.

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How do you feel about the current saber timings?

  1. They are the greatest thing since capteurless saber.

    16 vote(s)
    27.6%
  2. They were better before, but I've adjusted.

    4 vote(s)
    6.9%
  3. I'm conflicted. There are ups and downs.

    15 vote(s)
    25.9%
  4. Well, even though I've adjusted, we should revert or modify (explain).

    9 vote(s)
    15.5%
  5. They suck. They should be changed back. Roche should hang!

    4 vote(s)
    6.9%
  6. Poll is clearly flawed, cause if a saber doesn't cut parts off, what good is it?

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
  1. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    Given the time to adjust, and with a nod of profound respect to Sabreur, how do Saber fencers/coaches feel about the current saber timing?
     
  2. sabreur

    sabreur Podium

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    Moving this over here....

    The changes to sabre are actually significant, and mixed. I would like to see the block-out time doubled, to about 0.2 seconds, because I think it would remove the "cheap" remise or counter-attack from play--which I think has not helped sabre. On the other hand, the parry-riposte has gained some precedence over the continuation through the blade.

    Given that the evident purpose of screwing with the sabre timings was to make sabre more transparent to the spectator (the elusive, but highly regarded TV audience), I would say that the changes were unsuccessful and unneeded. You still have lots of close actions in which both fencers bring up a light, and the referee has to make a call based on very tight time--these actions are the ones that are hard for spectators to understand. The actions that are one-lighters because of the new timings are so clear that almost anyone would understand them--at least 99.9% of them.... (looks around innocently...)

    And thanks for the nod, Keropie....
     
  3. keropie

    keropie Podium

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    I voted for 'even though I've adjusted, they should revert or be modified' primarily because while saber is still very much saber, the RoW quotient has been diluted by the remise or the fast counterattack. I also feel that stateside, anyhow, there are too many officials giving precedence to fast counterattacks over correctly executed (if somewhat slow) attacks that set off two lights (I think this is due to the idea that saber has 'tightened' the window, so they get used to seeing only one light on many of those actions, and start to perceive preparations that don't exist). I hear this is not the case on the international level, and that later national events were less prone to this as well.
     
  4. KD5MDK

    KD5MDK Moderator

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    I think it might be a good idea to try out a somewhat longer lockout time, and see whether some intermediate time would do better at allowing properly executed attacks to arrive, ripostes before remises, etc. However, it is possible that there isn't a longer time that allows the actions we want without punishing the actions we don't want (proper stop-cuts being ignored in favor of out of time attacks).
     
  5. I_luv_saber

    I_luv_saber Podium

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    I think they were better before. I don't know about everyone else... but with the timings, I see this situation sometimes: Fencer A attacks to head, Fencer B does parry five. Fencer B ripostes, Fencer A remises, one light touch to Fencer A.
    If fencer A is quick enough... even about the same speed as his opponent I've noticed, he can remise fast enough to lock-out B's riposte. This may just be me, I have no idea as it's been some time since my last comp. This required a bit of change in tactics... usually just better distance control, scaring him into finishing early, etc. But I've also seen some compensate by basically eliminating 5 and just do a sweeping 4 or a circle 3 or some such.
    *shrugs*
    If they change again, I'll adapt, but another change would just be a pain in the ass for me anyways...
     
  6. AaronK

    AaronK Rookie

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    Though I don't think that sport should stand still, I feel that the timings have undermined the referee.
    As a fencer, I will do what is required to stay current in the sport, as well as a coach. As a referee I resent that the box will undermine my ability to see a correctly executed riposte, which is in time, and without delay...get no "light" because the connection was prevented by a microchip algorhythm.
    I can tactically work around the problem as a fencer.
    I can coach my athletes to exploit the smaller window of time and score.
    To me the message of changing the rules via the machine speaks of a lack of confidence in the skills of a person to discriminate between:
    1. A remise against a correctly executed simple riposte.
    2. A remise made in the preparation of the compound riposte.
    I as a fencer and coach I feel that as the "new timings" have opend avanues of new areas to explore- I also lament the loss of making last-second parries, compound ripostes, and fencing with ROW. [As to the very last comment, I am overgeneralizing a bit.]
     
  7. sabreman

    sabreman Guest

    I am able to make more one light touches (mostly into prep but sometimes even on attack) at the Vet level which is great (takes ref out of the equation). Don't like the occasional remise lock outs and luck touches (as Ivan Lee said just stick the blade out and you might hit somthing).
     
  8. Redblade

    Redblade DE Bracket

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    Same as in the other poll: from an epeeist's point of view, dabbling in sabre every so often, I think the timings are delightful.

    Gawd bless the remise.
     
  9. D+F+P=Hadouken!

    D+F+P=Hadouken! Rookie

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    I disagree with redblade. As an epeeist who dabbled in sabre and relatively well on an old timings box, the current sabre timings make it hard to be as tactical, as they make my ripostes unreliable.
     
    sabreur likes this.
  10. edew

    edew Podium

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    It has made saber into more of a luck game than a finesse game. People are now even more reluctant to parry than before. On the other hand, the parries now are more binding than before, which ironically slows down the riposte. It's just that the remise is harder to do when that blade is securely bound by the parry.

    The game has over-emphasized speed of attacks instead of tempo and set-ups for completion.

    Lastly, there's still this controversy of whether two-lights going off indicates a mal-parry or parry-riposte/remise.
     
  11. rcmatthews

    rcmatthews Rookie

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    If your basing your game on hoping to lock out people with remises (luck game), you're probably not going to do all that well. Parry/riposte still works, you just have to make a much more convincing parry than before. If you take one of those glancing light contact parries, then yes you will likely get locked out.

    I would be in favor of something between 200-250 ms
     
  12. Peach

    Peach Podium

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    I like the new timings--it's been fun mastering them and incorporating them into my game.
     
  13. edew

    edew Podium

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    The hard part is trying to teach the new timing. "Uh, I think you took too long. Felt like 145ms." yeahroit.
     
  14. Padawan

    Padawan Rookie

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    good old timings

    I agree that everyone needs to fence the current state of the game. However, I like the old timings better. I still can't enjoy the cheap remise lock out even if it is in favor of my fencers.
     
  15. prototoast

    prototoast Podium

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    I don't like getting hit on by remises, and feel guilty when I score with them, but I certainly don't find sabre fencing to be any "less fun" as I have heard many foil fencers complain about the new timings.

    If it is not less fun, then the good or bad for me seems to come down to refereeing (with the old timing) vs cheap touches (with the new timing). In particular, what's the marginal number of different bout outcomes with each. I don't actually know, and can't imagine a feasible way of figuring it out, but my gut tells me to side with the new timings, at least from a personal standpoint. At the collegiate level, the referee quality is quite inconsistent, and if I'm fencing with a bad referee, you'd better believe I want the new timings on my side. It also certainly helps against reputation touches. Bad remises suck, but at least they're consistent and you know how to deal with them. Bad referees are a crapshoot.
     
  16. Redblade

    Redblade DE Bracket

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    There is no "hope" or "luck" in good timing and distance control. One does not rush in stubbornly with nothing but a remise planned. THAT would be silly.
     
  17. tbryan

    tbryan Podium

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    "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

    Remise is a fencing term, not a "dating scene" term.
     
  18. fencerbill

    fencerbill Podium

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    I regret the lockouts of good parry ripostes. I have seen both Steve Mormando and Ed Korfanty, among others, frustrated by these. This is by good fencers.

    We have gotten used to timely attacks on preparation. Leave it up to the referee to determine when they are appropriate.

    Too many fencers don't even try to parry after an unsuccessful attack, specially the tall fencers with long arms.

    I would like to see a lockout of 180-200 milliseconds.
     
  19. Mihail

    Mihail DE Bracket

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    That's weird that some of you say the parry has become even less advantageous when I could swear that I've seen it become more prominant since the timing change.

    In any case, I think they should increase them to between the old and the current. I like the fact that a good counter-attack can now achieve a single light, but I don't like the remises and Andrew Bielen-style touches.
     
  20. Inquartata

    Inquartata Podium

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    I have mixed feelings about this issue. On the one hand, I have found that the new timings have helped me---I am fairly good at fast remises and attacks into prep. ( Ed Korfanty once mentioned that I have a "fast hand"...which I took as a compliment, even if I suspect that he was just too nice to follow the remark with "and little else". :) )

    On the other hand, I am nostalgic for the parry, the utility and frequency of which the new timing has definitely reduced somewhat...

    Yet I can't agree with Eric that it has made sabre more luck-reliant. One has merely to learn that the immediate riposte is dangerous. Ripostes have now mutated into more cautious things---after a parry or a missed attack the riposte takes the form of an attack from the defender, all the while on the lookout for attacks in prep. This calls rather for more thinking than less, whereas the old immediate riposts were almost reflexive. At the same time I agree with Redblade---a remise/stop cut game also requires timing and thought, not merely luck. The fencer who relies on luck for this game will soon be figured out and taken apart by a decent opponent.
     

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